e621 bans "explicit young human and human-like content"
Mostly-furry imageboard e621 has banned explicit art of human and essentially human children:
Due to challenges stemming from changes in the political and legal environment, both offline and online, we have had to adjust our content guidelines to preserve access to our site. As a result, any content featuring young human or humanoid characters in explicit situations is now prohibited and will be deleted. This change also applies retroactively, and we have already removed all existing submissions featuring such content.
Administrator NotMeNotYou later clarified that "busineses partners" had demanded the change, which related to their ability to make money, and that on-site adverts were not the issue:
There is no single law we can point to as the tipping point, and while we were sitting pretty unaffected by most things, the same can't be said to a bunch of our business partners who did not appreciate the heat we attract. And since we can't function in a vacuum we have had to adjust.
Things change, they were okay with it previously and now they aren't. They want to continue making money and we're stuck with the consequences. And no we can't just stop business with them, there's no way in hell we would be able to cover the gap that would cause, be it donations or otherwise.
Guess what put pressure on some of our partners? That's right, governments.
Guess who would like to continue doing business in places where those governments are? That's right, our business partners.
romaniaglory said:
The last thing you ever wanted to admit was censoring your website to appease advertisers.Nah, all our ads are handled directly by us and as far as I am aware none of them had any issue with the contents we host.
The ban covers "plain humans, stylized humans like cartoon characters (The Simpsons, etc), elves, orcs, vampires, zombies, kemonomimi, humans with a few glued on animal features (noses, tails, ears, whiskers, etc.), and similar content."
According to moderator Donovan DMC, this impacted 45,787 posts, although when challenged about some of the removals (possibly covering all cases of "young" with "human", even if these referred to different characters) NotMeNotYou said:
[As said already], we were under a pretty steep deadline, and as such used a shoot first and ask questions later approach. We'll be going through and restoring anything caught that shouldn't have been, now that we have more time to breathe and do so.
Per administrator Rainbow Dash, while e621 is served from Arizona, "this change would have happened regardless of where we were hosted".
User reaction was largely (but not entirely) negative, with criticism focusing on the lack of notice and the undermining of e621's status as an archive, as well as the inadvertent takedown of unrelated art. Some referenced similar actions by Fur Affinity and SoFurry, though this ban did not include cub.
About the author
GreenReaper (Laurence Parry) — read stories — contact (login required)a developer, editor and Kai Norn from London, United Kingdom, interested in wikis and computers
Small fuzzy creature who likes cheese & carrots. Founder of WikiFur, lead admin of Inkbunny, and Editor-in-Chief of Flayrah.
Comments
It's disappointing to, once again, see a failure to distinguish between fictional and real content as well as the reduction in free expression. It's obviously not the first (and probably not the last) time we see these weird overkill purges on sites. Fur Affinity and SoFurry both removed all cub content at one point. FA supposedly due to pressure from payment processor (a decision which was not reversed when they stop used using the processor) and SoFurry claimed to be responding to a legal threat. Outside of the fandom, Etsy recently announced it would ban selling erotic items. And when Pornhub had to act on revenge porn, they wound up nuking everything that wasn't submitted by a paid account, certainly a large overreaction.
To me, the strangest thing about the e621 purge is how the admins say that there was no specific tipping point but also that everything had to be done immediately and in a rush. That doesn't quite add up for me. If there's no tipping point then they had time to think before giving in to pressure. A rush means there was some imposed deadline from outside and that would certainly count as a tipping point in my mind.
Hopefully they get everything sorted out soon and restore the submissions which were inadvertently removed despite not meeting the criteria.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
Rakuen, honey, making the "failure to distinguish between reality and fiction" argument doesn't work when you do it because you have advocated for the act and not just the depiction in the past.
You seem to be confusing some fiction that you dreamt up with reality because I have not.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
Okay, you want it to go this way, sure, I don't even have to leave the website to bring back receipts. Remember, decades here, and it's not pretty. Yes, you're still as mealy-mouthed as ever in the "I didn't say child molestation isn't bad, I just said everything around it is okay, up to and including watching real child pornography." If there's a compromise, more nuanced position here, it's "Rakuen, honey, making the 'failure to distinguish between reality and fiction' argument doesn't work when you do it because you have advocated for the real version of child pornography and not just the fictional variety in the past."
You also don't seem to have any problem advocating for bestiality (and, uh, kind of an odd little moment in the article comments I linked to, but you seemed pretty okay with necrophilia there, too? I don't know, that was probably just an odd moment in a heated debate, on both sides, but it still has the same basic underlying issue of consent.), I mean, sure I can get receipts on that one, too, if you want, but I actually don't think you'll have much problem with my claims there, but, anyway, the point is, you've got a pattern, and it's actually more consistent than your free speech advocacy (which, while strongly defended in words, yes, in practice you've definitely seemed to pick and choose your moments, and, yes, receipts on this one, because, Jesus Christ, you even got Green Reaper a little snippy at you). Like I've said in the past, I don't think you're a pedophile, or a dogfucker, for that matter, because I just don't think you'd be able to keep that a secret for a decade+ (au contrere, I think you'd happily spill the beans instantly), but you definitely have some kind of bug up your butt about "consent". Like, you're smart enough to know you better say "child molestation is bad", but honestly, there's something that rubs you the wrong way about it, isn't there? You don't advocate for these sort of things because, if you had the option, you wouldn't do them, but not having the option drives you nuts.
And, Rakuen, I'm being nice. Most people do think you're just a dogfucking kiddy diddler, and that you're lying through your teeth about thinking these things are bad.
Well, anyway, since I linked to the Mizzyam case, in which a cub artist was arrested for real child pornography, I would like to rebut the "a failure to distinguish between fictional and real content" slogan by saying that's dismissive of the link between fictional and real content.
But, actually, in real terms, I'm kind of two very different minds about this e621 thing; yes, on one hand, it very clearly is censorship, but in a sideways sort of way, because, correct me if I'm wrong, most "submissions" to e621 aren't actually posted by the original artist, so unlike culls of cub porn on other furry sites, this is not a culling of an artists' primary (or even often secondary) market, and it's not even a cub porn cull, it's mostly not even furry, which begs the question why was it even there to begin with on grounds of "audience expectations" rather than "morality". I'm assuming a lot of "anime catgirl" ears-and-tails-and-maybe-paws were culled, but it also seems like a lot of what was removed wasn't appropriate for a furry site to begin with.
I thought it might be that discussion. I'm afraid you are still misreading even though you were corrected back then. You've also stretched my position which was never advocating for it but explaining the position based on the evidence that was available and the potential for harm reduction.
Even in the other link I had to correct you for misreading my positions. It's starting to feel like you are deliberately trying to misrepresent my views even when I state them explicitly.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
See, the problem is, Rakuen, most people just straight up think you're lying (I don't, but we've gone over that), and honestly your position is so weird the only other option is that you're, well, being kind of stupid. So, kind of pick your poison, lying or stupid (though, I suppose they aren't mutually exclusive). Either way, the truth is that you are not the person to make the "you people can't distinguish between reality and fiction" argument because everyone assumes you either a. are a lying pedophile or b. have trouble sorting reality and "depictions" yourself.
I don't have to deliberately misrepresent you. It's kind of automatic. I'm actually bending over backwards to give you any benefit of the doubt. Most people assume people defending something have a reason for doing that; your advocasy of child pornography makes it seem like you're, well, a pedophile. And don't tell me that's an illogical assumption, you've done the same thing yourself; in the comments to the article about book banning, you automatically assumed partisan bias was at play rather than actual love of free speech, and, like, no duh.
Furthermore, I've also seen other people spouting this "failure to distinguish between fictional and real content" line elsewhere word for word already, so I doubt you even came up with it to begin with and are just spouting a talking point. Well, don't do that. First of all, it's a bad faith argument that assumes everyone on one side is mentally handicapped (to be fair, everyone is bad faith assuming your side is mangy pedophiles, but two wrongs don't make a right), but second of all, get your own material, better suited to you, personally.
OH, GODDAMMIT, RAKUEN!
I decide, hey, lessons learned in the decade, I think I'll just leave my phone home tonight, we'll get stupid on our own time, and then TRUMP HAS TO GO GET HIS FUCKING EAR BLOWN OFF, AND I MIGHT'VE WANTED MY PHONE FOR THAT.
Totally your fault.
Take your own advice crossie and learn how to handle an argument instead of screaming around like a child and picking fights with people you despise while depending on the fallacy of popular emotional tactic vote. You're the same weirdo who falsely accused someone as a defender of CSA just because they had a different opinion on punishment level despite no one defending it.
And let's be honest, you're likely just saying this because you hate fiction is fiction people.
Too soon?
I like that nickname "Crossie" I am totally stealing that... Oh wait... stealing is a sin, it's forbidden... well ya know what, I don't care.
Anyway, I bet "Crossie" would have totally CRUCIFIED the Emu-Dev known as Near / Byuu...
https://archive.fo/2010.02.23-165707/http://byuu.org/articles/thoughtcrimes
Wouldn'tcha... BARACUDA?
""""And let's be honest, you're likely just saying this because you hate fiction is fiction people.""""
Oh hey! I'M a Fiction is Fiction / Fiction Isn't Real Life type person, so does that mean Crossie hates me? Good. LOL....
"""It's starting to feel like you are deliberately trying to misrepresent my views even when I state them explicitly."""
Because it's a Straw Man argument, that much should be plainly obvious.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Straw_man
It's like when a person says "I like apples" and someone else reads that and says "OH, SO YOU HATE ORANGES THEN?"
No, that's a whole entirely different sentence.
Anyway, just do your best to IGNORE Crossie....
If they wanna be a goofball and put words in your mouth, then you've no obligation at all to dignify their delusional b.s. with a response.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_argument#Kafkatrapping
You're fine, and you did nothing wrong.
Leave Rakuen alone, weirdo...
Also, NEAR / BYUU DID NOTHING WRONG....
https://archive.fo/2010.02.23-165707/http://byuu.org/articles/thoughtcrimes
Res In Peace lil fluffy homie... we ain't ever gunna forget about'chu...
Makes me wonder how many pedos are in this space. Hey I can spot one already.
(I am not a lawyer.) Canada's Criminal Code doesn't discuss real versus fictional content, or discuss drawings specifically, but makes it clear that the medium of communication and personal motives are no protection. If you have something that combines sex with elements of crime, horror, cruelty or violence, then it's obscene by Canadian law. (I guess this means hard vore porn is illegal in Canada?) You can attempt arguing that something is a "public good" but good luck with that. As for arguing a free speech angle, a supreme court case from 1992 confirmed the notion of judging pornography under "community standards", which considers not what you individually think of something, but what public opinion would be if the material was shown to other people. Good luck showing the removed e621 content to random Canadian citizens and asking "You're ok with this, right?". Then there's a whole section of Canada's Criminal code that was added to address minors.
There used to be a criminal provision from 1949 against "crime comics", from the same moral panic that created the Comics Code Authority in the United States. Canada finally repealed it in 2018. Still, with the rise of computer-generated artwork and deepfakes, Canadian criminal law has not kept itself up to date and will need to re-evaluate what it means by "intimate image".
What has Canada got to do with the story? I thought e621 runs out of the US, specifically Arizona.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
As noted in the story (though I think not when you initially commented), staff say that the location of the server is essentially irrelevant, as it's about the business partners who support the site's operation, and their relationship with governments and other parties that allow them to continue doing business.
Some not on staff raised Bad Dragon not being able to deal at Anthrocon, and while I don't know that specific matter is relevant to this case (it happened years ago and was more about the product getting untoward attention at AC, which has lots of other dealers and also a lot of media attention), I could easily imagine it being brought up by card processors for BD or another of the companies under the same ownership, like e621's hosting provider.
Ya know what, it's whatever.... I don't really care about what's going on right now with E621, if they wanna crash and burn and wreck their website into the ground by going on a big dumb "BAN ALL CUB" crusade like what FurAffinity did, that's their own prerogative. But what I find hilarious is that the people who participated in that Big Announcement Thread (including myself) did not understand or realize that the post itself was a trap... and we all ate the cheese, not realizing that the big metal bar was about to snap tight onto our necks.
They knew what they were doing and they knew it was bait... bait to get the Pro Cub / Pro Fiction people to all argue and fight and misbehave so that the younger, whinier mods would have an excuse to hand out Bans and Infractions. I didn't "behave badly" I don't think, I didn't insult anybody, I just presented the Law with quotes and links... Protect Act 2003 was ruled unconstitutional, that's a FACT. Under 18 U.S. Code § 2256 -- drawings are not the same thing as genuine CSEM, they have to pass as VIRTUALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE, that's a FACT.
But some people HATE those facts... and I suspect that a fair number of the E6 mods are secretly staunchly Anti Cub, so someone like ME who posts LAWS is viewed as a Rabble Rouser... I wasn't being disruptive, just posting LAWS. So how how how could they SILENCE ME? Well Donovan DMC came up with a way, he misread a comment of mine which says "I AM WAY PAST 18, THANKS" that I made in response to another user.
Instead of FACT CHECKING or ASKING ME or maybe even ASKING TO SEE SOME I.D. he just locked my account then and there. I am most CERTAINLY not "und3r r4ge" and I have no issues sending a photocopy of my I.D. to either Donovan DMC or Not Me Not You... so long as I am able to BLOCK OUT any sensitive information on it, as I really don't feel like having my ID passed around to 4chan and Kiwi Farms, especially considering WHAT THEY DID TO NEAR / BYUU...
I emailed the "management" email for e6. No response. I sent an email to NMNY, no response.
I even sent Ink Bunny Mails to NMNY on their account in both ENGLISH & GERMAN... no response.
Me being slapped with the "und3r r4ge" label is false... I'd wager that I am older than A LOT OF YOU.... but it was still an easy way to shut me up and make sure that I couldn't keep posting FACTS & LAWS in that thread.
Hey "GreenReaper" you were born in 1982, correct?
Well I was born in 1981. So I got one up on you by a Year.
I grew up watching Knight Rider as a kid... WHEN IT ORIGINALLY AIRED....
What about you, GR? Do you remember Knight Rider? With the Hoff and the Talking Car????
....
And I made my Ink Bunny account let's see... 2012... that's 12 years ago...
What year did I turn 18? 1999. The moderation note says "contact the E6 staff if you've reached the sufficient age" -- dawg, I already reached sufficient age about 25 years ago, but go off I guess????
....
I been around the Furry Fandom a LONG ass time... went to my first Anthro Con in 2003, I was around for the drama on Fchan when the new mods came in and started screaming about how they were gunna BAN ALL CUB... and what happened to Fchan after they forced that rule? They crumbled to dust. Same crap happened to FurAffinity when they implemented their Anti Cub & Anti Short Pokemon Rules... E6 is building its own coffin and digging its own grave.
Nobody wants to be told "You can't draw that, it's problematic" by a bunch of whiney Twitter Dorks who cannot separate fiction from reality. Nobody wants to have to WALK ON EGGSHELLS every time they do something on the site, such as upload art, comment on stuff, or make forum posts or comment on forum posts... and it ISSSS walking on Eggshells, because the SLIGHTEST thing you do on E621 usually pisses off some whiney ultra sensitive 20-something moderator with a stick up their ass.... (like Donovan DMC)...
I am not und3r r4ge... far from it. At this point I don't even care if my account at E6 gets re-activated and unlocked, I highly doubt it will. They don't WANT someone INTELLIGENT and WELL EDUCATED posting laws and facts in that forum thread.... what they really would PREFER is more people kissing the mod staff's asses and praising them and saying how "great" they are... it's a slippery slope, folks! It's a PURITY SPIRAL, folks! You think they ain't just gunna act like FurAffinity and keep adding more and more stuff to the Big List of Stuff We Hate?
Look at FurAffinity for a template and confirmation of all your worst fears about over-reaching censorship... first they banned Cub, but then the Goal Post shifted to go after the Short Pokemon and Sonic-verse characters. The things you THINK are "safe" from a bad rule change actually ARE NOT SAFE and are actually NEXT UP to be put onto the Chopping Block! Why are we allowing overly-sensitive easily offended TUMBLR DORKS and CRAPPY CHRISTIAN-OWNED PAYMENT PROCESSORS to dictate and mandate what is or isn't okay in 2D FURRY ART????
This is insane. And you know gawd-damn well that every other thing that Tumblr & Twitter decides is "problematic" is next to go. Cub will fall next, Feral will fall after that, then "too big age gaps even if both characters are past the age of 18" ... I've even watched Tumblr / Twitter dorks have 10 page long arguments over WHETHER OR NOT RAMBLEY THE RACCOON COUNTS AS AN ANTHRO... dawg, he talks and walks upright -- PRETTY DAMN SURE HE'S AN ANTHRO....
He's a digital assistant who lives inside a computer somewhere, HE'S NOT A REAL RACCOON, DAMMIT.... Meeko from Pocahontas was a Feral character, NOT FRIGGIN' RAMBLEY from Indigo Park! He's ANTHRO....
And I've even seen Tumblr / Twitter dorks tell an artist "You can't draw an aged up Ralsei from DeltaRune, that's gross because he's still a kid" then what was the point of aging him up if it won't please you and make you STFU? These "Fiction Activists" are always moving their Goal Posts and treating FICTIONAL CHARACTERS as if they are equal to REAL PEOPLE.... it's insane... I don't understand how either FurAffinity or E621 can think cow-towing and rolling over for these "social justice but for the fictional drawings" type people is a GOOD IDEA....
THEY'RE CARTOON CHARACTERS, YOU FRIGGIN' PUTZ!!!
What's next? Are they gunna start going after Plushies too?
OH GAWD, THINK OF THAT POOR STUFFED ANIMAL, SOMEONE PLZ THINK OF ITS RIGHTS & FEELINGS!!!
Dawg.... it's an inanimate object made of fabric and stuffing.... IT DOESN'T HAVE RIGHTS & FEELINGS!!!!!
...........
Anyway GR, do me a favor and tell Donovan DMC he's a friggin' clown. Thanks.
..........
And I would also like to ask -- WHY is it that despite that fact I am blocked / locked from being able to use my E6 account, I can STILL see pornographic images???? The "Account Curtain" / "Pay Wall" really only seems to affect (block out) CUB DRAWINGS... but if I want to I can still go see p0rnz of Chip N' Dale from The Rescue Rangers having gay butt sex (actually, saw it as a PFP of some user in the forum in the Big Announcement Thread).
If a lurker can go see Chip N' Dale pr0nz, then what is the POINT of the "Account Curtain" / "Pay Wall?" It doesn't matter if those drawings of Chip N' Dale are "cub versions" or "adult versions" -- the affect is still the same and still detrimental to the person viewing that, is it not? (by the logic of the Cult of John Harvey Kellog and Jesus Christ, I mean, I personally don't really give a damn).
I am just saying -- it's goofy, it's silly, it's one sided.
So Sheath & Knife by Harmarist is hidden behind the "You Must Be Logged In" curtain, but Gay Chip N' Dale pr0nz ISN'T HIDDEN from anyone who's just browsing the site with no account???? Make that make SENSE, e621!!!! BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY LOGICAL GAWD DAMN SENSE... if an actual minor can't look at pr0nz of Tails The Fox, but they CAN look at PORNOGRAPHIC DISNEY CHARACTER DRAWINGS -- on your website -- then isn't your system just a little bit.... Hmmm... FLAWED????
HEY E6, MAYBE TRY PUTTING ~ALL~ PR0NZ BEHIND THE IRON CURTAIN, AND NOT JUST ~SOME~
....................................
Bro, you don't even, like, need an account on e621 to look at everything, do you?
I sort of think these anons are trolling y'all. It might not best to engage with them.
Seriously does this site not have a ban hammer or block IPs?
If these anons aren't trolling they are communicating their ideas poorly.
Like seriously do these anons expect people like me, a young college student in his early twenties to read these walls of text. As a matter of fact I don't think anyone would read these long ass comments.
IDK maybe its my severe ADHD lol.
At least those "walls of text" still have line breaks and paragraphs where they are supposed to have them. At least they aren't just one big unbroken sentence with no punctuation whatsoever.
Sorry that people don't talk in little sound bites like on Twitter.
Personally I was always more partial to Live Journal, where you could actually type out a full paragraph.
Also, you are not the only person out of this entire forum who has some form of ADHD or Autism.
Young college student? Fascinating. I was the "Copy Editor" (over-glorified paid spell checker) for my Community College's newspaper.
Anyway, a 4chan troll or a Kiwi Farms troll says complete and utter nonsense without aim, goal, or purpose.
Everything I have said here has had a POINT....
"""If these anons aren't trolling they are communicating their ideas poorly."""
I communicate my ideas with humor and irony and by holding up a mirror to other people's hypocrisy and by pointing out the fact that these kinds of pro-censorship people are very, very, very "rules for thee, but not for me" with their approach to art and freedom of speech and expression. If you cannot understand these ideas at their most basic level, then I'm sorry, that's a skill issue on ~your~ part, not mine. I will not water down and dilute my jokes or my message any further than I already have....
"""Seriously, does this website not have a ban hammer or a way to block specific IP Addresses?"""
Translation: "Hey Flayrah, how come you're not like E6 or FA? How come you won't outright BAN PEOPLE when they say stuff I don't agree with or make points that run counter to my own beliefs?"
Yeah, the issue is that you're way too funny for us.
Whatever you say, Fruit Stripes Gum.
You do need an e621 account to see everything. Certain keywords (gore, scat, watersports, young (except on "safe" submissions), loli and shota) are blocked by default. I think the only way to disable that is to have an account.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
Ok. I thought this guy was just really really mad that he can't put comments on them anymore.
To see the specific kind of content that ~I~ wanna see (pr0nz of Tails, who is technically a "cub" despite Sega recently removing all canon ages for all Sonic-verse characters) yes, I would need an actual account for that. Also, has it never struck you as strange that e6 only puts ONE SPECIFIC particular type of content ("cub") behind a "You Must Have An Account Wall" but nothing else is hidden in such a way???
Anyone without an account can go search up yiffy artwork of Chip N' Dale from the Rescue Rangers doing a ghey seckz, but art of Tails & Sonic screwing is just too "spicey" for the general non-account having public? How does even that make any sense? If the real goal was to prevent virgin eyes from seeing things that they shouldn't see, then shouldn't ALL of it be placed behind an Account Wall, and not just SOME of it?
Didjuh not ever consider that there's a genuine reason for all this anger?
https://www.flayrah.com/9198/e621-bans-explicit-young-human-and-human-content#co...
And also, I was not the only person out of that entire e6 thread expressing their displeasure with the decision (and also being targeted and punished for it).
https://e621.net/forum_topics/45501?page=13
People were BAITED into participation in that thread...
SO THAT THEY COULD BE PUNISHED.... DUHHH....
Rakuen listed three keywords that have nothing to do with "cub", so it actually doesn't strike me at all "that ONE SPECIFIC particular type of content" is behind a wall because just one isn't. Like, the top article on Flayrah can't be just a video like I originally meant it to be because YouTube age restricts it for one of the exact same things Rakuen listed, gore, so that is not a weird thing only e621 does.
I'm sorry you got banned from e621 and can't find Tails porn there anymore, major tragedy, but, once again, if you posted there like you post here, you deserved to be banned, Flayrah is just really, really not into banning people, and oh, wait, you literally linked to yourself being the same weird asshole over there and are the only guy in that thread banned. Furthermore, if you can't fucking find Tails porn somewhere, anywhere, else on the Internet, you just fucking suck at the Internet, dude. So, why don't you go search for it, instead of replying three times to this single post (seriously, why is it always three with you?), and give us a break?
JFC, but I just logged out of my e621 account, searched for Tails porn, and got a lot that wasn't tagged "young" but was tagged "e" and was therefore fine. Like, did you try "miles prower"? Because that's the correct tag for the character. (Also, Sonic the Hedgehog and Rescue Rangers? Jesus, you are old.)
(Also, Sonic the Hedgehog and Rescue Rangers? Jesus, you are old.)
Yup. Grew up watching Knight Rider, Dukes of Hazard, A-Team, Street Hawk etc.
Viper was okay in the 90s, but it wasn't as good as Knight Rider I think...
(was it really too much trouble to make Viper talk?)
Anyway, yeah, makes my "ban reason" by Donovan Delorean Motor Company all the more nonsensical.
https://e621.net/users/638414
I would have understood if the listed reason was "being aggro" which is truthful and actually applies to my commenting style, but DMC claiming I am "below 18" when I turned 18 in 1999 is honestly kinda ridiculous....
Several times I have offered to show my actual government issued I.D. card and every attempt has been ignored... e621 isn't even the same place or the same vibe as what it was back in the Myspace and Livejournal Days, it's gone through a major shift, just like F-Chan did after Sage Nadia took hold of the reigns and started forcing their own personal morality into the art and the ban enforcement.
It honestly wouldn't even surprise me if Sage Nadia created a brand new alias and persona and became a mod over at e621 because F-Chan became a ghost town and stopped having a user base. What's the point of being a mod for a dead website? Nobody to kick around! So it would make sense for Sage Nadia to switch over to E6 as there are plenty of people there for S.N. to piss off for epic lulz.
You completely glossed over THE POINT, Crossie...
If e621 is so concerned with the idea of "keeping the Below Eighteens from seeing all that icky nasty yiffy artwork" ... then wouldn't it make more sense to put EVERYTHING that shows any hint of lewdness behind an "Account Wall?" Why only X - Y and Z type of content? Why not put ALL OF IT behind the wall? WHY PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH P0RN ART IS "OKAY TO SHOW PUBLICLY ON THE WEBSITE" AND WHICH KIND "MUST BE HID BEHIND THE ACCOUNT WALL?"
Why not hide ALL OF IT???? If they truly do care so deeply about preventing the innocent youths who may stumble upon E6 from having their poor innocent christian eyeballs being scarred forever by p0rn of Scooby Doo or Balto... I mean, if a random Minus Eighteen sees that stuff, they... (e6 and its related companies and staff).... are on the hook for that and they can be sued for that under whatever crappy stupid law some state has, right?
https://www.flayrah.com/9059/insular-lawmaking-leads-e621-pornhub-block-north-ca...
So why pick and choose? Why be selective? P0rn is P0rn.
Doesn't really matter if it's Sheath & Knife or if it's Jeremy Bernal's SexyFur pin-ups.
It's the same sh1t with the same psychological effects...
What makes ONE better than the other?
What makes one MORE DETRIMENTAL than the other?
THEY'RE BOTH P0RN0GRAPHY... aren't they????
You don't have to censor words like "pornography", here, dude. Edit: or maybe you do. I forget anons have a spam filter for words like "socialism"
Because you're allowed to do that and it is in fact quite normal to decide some content is worse than others. If you disagree, either in general or in this particular case, that is fine, but perhaps you could find a better way to express this, because you're missing my point; it really doesn't matter what point you're trying to make, because you are making your point badly.
Putting p0rn0graphic content of any kind in a publicly viewable setting should still be illegal, if E6 was smart and they actually cared -- they'd put ANYTHING WITH ANY KIND OF LEWDNESS behind that magic "Account Wall." Not just some of it, and if E6 can't think that far ahead, and they get sued as a result, then that's their own damn fault, ain't it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/e621/comments/18vhgjg/whats_going_on_in_north_carolina/
And, once again, what side are you on?
I mean, I've played the "enlightened centrist" both-sides-suck card in this comment section, and I've still got more of a focused viewpoint on the matter; do you want e621 to censor everything, or not? Because, all things being equal, sure, all things should be equally censored or not censored, but unfortunately, we live in the real world, where all things are not equal and most people distinguish between not only bad and good but also bad and worse, which are differences, so they are treated differently.
Then again, the "you're just trolling" card is still very much on the table, and you're just oscillating rapidly between positions in order to garner a response. Seeing as how last time you were directly accused of trolling, you started posting random song lyrics and YouTube links to the songs (that's redundant, by the way, you don't have to do both), well, I mean, that's pretty troll-ish behavior, actually.
But, going to go with "good faith" here and say if you're concerned about e621's future and not just salty about the ruling (and then being banned), maybe you should lead with that, and next time you won't get banned.
I'm on the side of pro freedom of fiction and pro freedom of artwork, you know... the team which is opposite from your own.
YOU would prefer that people go to jail over fictional cartoon drawings... like that Bunny Bits artist from France (who later moved to Japan).
"""Some not on staff raised Bad Dragon not being able to deal at Anthrocon."""
Like that time that some conventions refused to allow Softpaw Magazine to be sold at their dealers' dens????
Personally I don't see why, it's a comic book, just like Sheath & Knife is a comic book.
Anime Cons sell l0li / sh0ta crap all the damn time, so what's the big deal?
Business partners can be from anywhere. The site's users can be from anywhere, uploading or downloading content. The article itself rejects the geographic origin: "this change would have happened regardless of where we were hosted". I don't have an opinion on Arizona law, but at least I can offer my perceived understanding of Canadian law, for how such things might effect Canadians. How do e621's decisions align with South African law? My comment was mostly concerned with you saying there was "a failure to distinguish between fictional and real content". I've demonstrated that, if this was taking place in Canada, that Canada probably wouldn't care about such a distinction. Therefore it is not some kind of universally agreed-upon ethic that can be appealed to.
Ah, I see. Though that feeds into discussions on the global nature of the internet. One of the big strengths of the internet is that anyone can access it from anywhere in the world. However, many regimes dislike that and are not content with merely regulating their citizens but want to then regulate websites elsewhere in the world. That's where things get problematic. If we are worried about e621's content being compliant with Canadian laws, then we should also be worried about it complying with the laws of other countries that could ban pornography completely or criminalise anything that depicts homosexuality in a positive light. I think a site should only concern itself with the laws of the country in which it is hosted while the site users need to make their own decisions on the risks/benefits of using site given the laws of the country in which they are based.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
Predictable "ayckshyually it's about free expression" from the creep whose concerns magically only focus on pedo shit and nothing but. Never leave pets or kids anywhere near the greasy fingers of Rakuen.
Kafka Traps and Ad Hominems...
Do you have any proof to back up these claims & accusations???
You better remember that this "fictional content" is still nsfw content of minors, and therefore illegal and widely despised pretty much globally. You should really have thought that through before basically admitting you advocate for sexual images of minors. Good luck holding that up in court. (also as 2cross2affliction mentioned, this is probably one of your less incriminating comments. Might want to stop speaking about this before the FBI turn up at your door.)
It's not actually illegal, though. Immoral, sure, but not actually illegal.
I responded to Rakuen this time because he was using a prick talking point that wasn't true, but for the most part I don't think either cub porn or censorship is an existential threat to furry fandom. If anything, I think this whole thing is annoying, like we had a compromise going; no cub porn on the majority of websites, except for a few freak exceptions like InkBunny who are valiantly but mostly unsuccessfully trying to make "the one that allows cub porn" not their entire personality, and then e621 as the wild west, anything goes place with no rules protected by its tagging system of personal user censorship and the fact it's no artist's actual primary site (or darn well shouldn't be), which was not a perfect system, but it was a workable compromise until this just threw a twist in there for no real discernible reason.
But this also feels like a compromise in and of itself; they didn't ban cub porn. Like, probably someone was agitating for it, but they instead settled on "well, let's ban the virtual child porn that isn't furry" which at least gives them a "it's a furry site, why is it even there?" excuse. I mean, we've got a bunch of whining "they locked my thread!" posts in these comments, but the truth is, if you were posting there like you're posting here, yeah, that thread should've been locked. Never mind the sheer belligerence of a lot of the comments (I mean, like I can say shit), you guys sure are repetitive, and you don't seem to actually have much to say beyond the belligerent tromping.
Actually looking at what happened (e621 had its hand forced, so they tried to save what they could with the "no furry" hail Mary) and realizing we're not going to live in a world where all virtual child pornography is saved or censored, what's happening here is an unsatisfying compromise, that's all. It's, well, unsatisfying, but really the worst part of it is that we already had a working unsatisfying compromise, and now the unsatisfied partisans have an excuse to bitch and moan and boy howdy friends it sure is annoying.
But, actually, probably should go into "legality". No, there are no specific laws* against fictional depictions or writings of pedophilic acts (though there are laws against the acts themselves, as well as possessing recordings of those acts). However, we still have a lot of obscenity laws, and, yeah, I think you could argue that "cub porn" or "shota/loli" or whatever is obscene (fuck, kind of the point, really), but those obscenity laws are actually really, really toothless in America, due to our courts mostly siding with the "let's not do a censorship" side, and the fact what is considered "obscene" in a culture changes over time. Now, you can argue maybe the laws should more specifically define "obscenity", but the truth is the vagueness is a feature, not a bug, allowing courts to change with the cultural norms.
Mostly, America has allowed entertainment industries to police themselves, so you get rating systems in games and movies and, actually, we mostly just trust the printing industry to know what they're doing, I guess. Basically, that's what e621 is doing (or their financial backers are forcing them to do). In America, our government doesn't actually do much censoring. They don't need to. They let us do it ourselves (usually in the form of big corporate entities, which may be worse!).
There have been an occasional case where, yes, someone is taken to trial for obscenity with something like what we're discussing here, and on least one occasion in my memory a "loli" artist plead guilty, but in that case she was poor as dirt and couldn't afford to go to trial so it was actually cheaper for her to just pay the fucking fine (which is fucked up, but, that's how it works sometimes) (and this was a while back and I may be misremembering and I sure as hell can't source that, sorry).
*Like dronon, caveat that this is USA, and not a lawyer so add a silent "as far as I know".
"""caveat that this is USA, and I am not a lawyer.""""
You aren't, yes, but Boozy Badger is.
https://web.archive.org/web/20180525162247/http://lawyersandliquor.com/2018/04/f...
The funniest thing about these discussions online regarding for furry art is that people seem to be ignorant of mainstream art. Now, I don't know about visual art but The 120 Days of Sodom contains pretty much every perversion that people complain about online and you can buy it right off Amazon or probably any major bookstore in a developed country.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
The difference is that 120 Days of Sodom doesn't have a fandom of obsessive pedophiles who scream about it in the cesspool of comments on a tiny furry website
LagoVert ripped off all your jokes and passed them off as his own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXPAvt_YKMs
Hey Crossie, who do you hate more, Rakuen or Green Reaper, and WHY?
>>>> It's not actually illegal (in America) to make those kinds of drawings.... <<<<<
You yourself know it... you yourself said it....
...................................................
https://www.justice.gov/osg/brief/ashcroft-v-free-speech-coalition-merits
............
"...the CPPA is not unconstitutionally vague. Persons of ordinary intelligence can discern whether a depiction is virtually indistinguishable from a photograph of a real child engaged in sexually explicit conduct. The question is whether a reasonable unsuspecting viewer would consider the depiction to be of an actual individual under the age of 18 engaged in sexual activity. That question can be readily answered in the vast majority of cases based on the physical characteristics of the persons depicted and the way in which the material is promoted."
............
"Congress intended for both prohibitions to reach a narrow category of material-depictions that are "virtually indistinguishable to the unsuspecting viewer from unretouched photographic images of actual children engaging in sexually explicit conduct."
............
"Depictions That Are Virtually Indistinguishable From Depictions Of Real Children Engaged In Sexually Explicit Conduct Are Unprotected By The First Amendment."
............
"Because the Act applies only to depictions that are virtually indistinguishable from photographs of real children, it does not apply to drawings, cartoons, sculptures, or paintings that depict youthful-looking persons in sexual poses."
............
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2256
Dragoneer even cited this exact section of U.S. law in his post in the Fur Affinity Forums back in 2006...
https://web.archive.org/web/20150821170440/https://forums.FurAffinity.net/thread...
.............
And I would also like to point out -- liking cartoon drawings is not "p3d0philia" or "z00philia."
It is actually FICTOPHILIA... because what the person is attracted to is a CARTOON DRAWING...
A cartoon drawing of a fictional anime character or a fictional furry character is not real...
https://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Toonophilia
A person who is attracted to Tails doesn't wanna screw a real actual fox.
They just like the visual aesthetic of that character.
He's orange, he's fluffy, he's cute and he LOOKS NOTHING LIKE ANY ACTUAL HUMAN PERSON IN REAL LIFE....
Kros Krossie-'ll make yuh -- JUMP, JUMP!
The churchie fur will make yuh -- JUMP, JUMP!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=010KyIQjkTk
Okay, see, this is what I'm talking about; we got the Kris Kross reference, or we just didn't care. You didn't need to explain it. Redundant.
Furthermore, it actually took me a moment to realize I was even involved in this subthread. See, when you keep replying to yourself, I have to scroll for like ten seconds to even notice myself in the thread. I'm confused why you're even bringing me up here at first, which means I don't have brain space to process your great 90s references.
And that's just bad use of this comment section.
Came to read this and the old FA bans thing. Somewhat worried about the prevalence of users who are advocating for the legalization of possession of real CSAM, and how they seem to be tolerated. While I understand the initial statements made and am familiar with a myriad of studies linked by said users, I think it is being sorely mishandled.
Fictional content cannot harm a real person, unless said person is blurring the lines. If a person who likes feral art is using said works to promote the harm of real animals, that would be something for concern. If a person is trying to convince others they are a pedophile by way of liking cub, and therefore should offend in some way, that is equally as harmful. There is nuance here; we’ve seen it with IB’s recent ban on paraphilic pride symbols and their relation to the sharing of illicit material.
Cub, lolisho, feral, incest; none of these concepts are harmful when depicted in fiction. Harm comes from predators actively conflating these things with reality, and those trying to “justify” the harm of other living beings. Rape, *necrophilia, zoophilia, and pedophilia are not acceptable because of the harm they do, not because they are “gross.”
*Necrophilia is a difficult one, even among professionals. Its harm comes from the psychological trauma caused to family members or friends of the desecrated. Yet, if a person were to specifically request their body be turned into a sex toy after death… well, I still wouldn’t be okay with it, but we’d be having a different discussion.
Just tossing in my two cents, as a person who came across this site while reading the E621’s borderline-nonsensical thread. Censorship of drawings is bad, pixels don’t have rights, blah blah blah. Nothing really groundbreaking there. But the surrounding and background discussions from certain users trying to defend the use/ownership of illicit materials (which unequivocally depict the harm of animals or minors: including AI trained off CSAM and photomanipulations of real children) is concerning, especially during a time where purely fictional content is being directly (and incorrectly) linked to such ideologies.
I’ve no intent to argue, mind, just voicing my thoughts. If you’d like links to studies or something of the sort, I may be able to help, if I remember this website exists later. If not, JSTOR, PsychologyToday, researchgate, and the NIH all have a great deal of resources to go over, though keep in mind the topic is deeply nuanced and no single study should be how you confirm or deny your biases.
Hey....
Whoever you are....
I ~ONE THOUSAND~ percent agree....
https://e621.net/forum_posts/411807
.....................................
https://e621.net/forum_posts/411786
.....................................
https://www.justice.gov/osg/brief/ashcroft-v-free-speech-coalition-merits
............
"(UNLIKE the Protect Act of 2003) the CPPA is not unconstitutionally vague. Persons of ordinary intelligence can discern whether a depiction is virtually indistinguishable from a photograph of a real child engaged in sexually explicit conduct. The question is whether a reasonable unsuspecting viewer would consider the depiction to be of an actual individual under the age of 18 engaged in sexual activity. That question can be readily answered in the vast majority of cases based on the physical characteristics of the persons depicted and the way in which the material is promoted."
............
"Congress intended for both prohibitions to reach a narrow category of material-depictions that are "virtually indistinguishable to the unsuspecting viewer from unretouched photographic images of actual children engaging in sexually explicit conduct."
............
"Depictions That Are Virtually Indistinguishable From Depictions Of Real Children Engaged In Sexually Explicit Conduct Are Unprotected By The First Amendment."
............
"Because the Act applies only to depictions that are virtually indistinguishable from photographs of real children, it does not apply to drawings, cartoons, sculptures, or paintings that depict youthful-looking persons in sexual poses."
............
And since we're here, let's throw in some NEIL GAIMAN quotes for good measure....
................................................
"The Law is a blunt instrument. It's not a scalpel, it's a CLUB. If there is something you consider indefensible, and there is something you consider defensible, and the same laws can take them BOTH out, you are going to find yourself defending the indefensible. The law is a big blunt instrument that makes no fine distinctions between what you like and what you don't like, and you only realize how wonderful absolute freedom of speech is until the day you've lost it."
....
"You ask, What makes it worth defending? and the only answer I can give is this: Freedom to write, freedom to read, freedom to own material that you believe is worth defending means you're going to have to stand up for stuff you don't believe is worth defending, even stuff you find actively distasteful, because laws are big blunt instruments that do not differentiate between what you like and what you don't, because prosecutors are humans and bear grudges and fight for re-election, because one person's obscenity is another person's art. Because if you don't stand up for the stuff you don't like, when they come for the stuff you do like, you've already lost."
.....
A User on Tumblr once asked Neil Gaiman if his views still remained the same as from before, Neil Gaiman replied:
"Same views, I still haven't read any l0lic0n books. I still firmly believe that people should not be imprisoned for DRAWINGS, even drawings which YOU disapprove of... I still believe that ACTUAL CSEM with real victims is an EVIL thing that should be prosecuted."
.....
I would also like to add, for any 4chan trolls, Fruit Farm trolls, and Tumblr / Twitter dorks who might be lurking in this comment section -- LIKING CARTOON DRAWINGS ISN'T P-PHILIA OR Z-PHILIA, YOU IGNORANT ILLITERATE SHMUCKS....
It would actually be classified as FICTOPHILIA / TOONOPHILIA / SCHEDIAPHILIA...
The person who likes that drawing likes it because of the AESTHETIC, not "because it's tooootally a child or an animal!" you friggin' uneducated ignoramus.
https://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Toonophilia
Liking a CARTOON is not going to MAKE someone go out and do crap to kids or animals.
So take your UNPROVEN GATEWAY HYPOTHESIS and stuff it where the sun don't shine!
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gateway_drug_theory
If a person is an ABSOLUTE MENTAL CASE, they don't NEED a video game, or a music album, or a movie or a TV show or a comic book to influence them to do bad things... they were ALREADY HEADED THAT DIRECTION....
Post Hoc Ergo, Propter Hoc.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Post_hoc,_ergo_propter_hoc
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation
I suggest that all you 4chan Freaks FAMILIARIZE YOURSELVES with these logical fallacies....
Oh, and this one is your favorite.... KAFKA TRAP....
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_argument#Kafkatrapping
.......
Do y'all remember the "Witch Hunt Scene" from Monty Python and The Holy Grail??? Where the angry villagers grabbed some random woman and painted her face up all green and glued a carrot nose to her face and said "SHE'S A WITCH, SHE'S A WITCH, LET'S BURN HER!" and she says "But I'm NOT a witch, THEY dressed me up like this!!!"
That is what Y'ALL are doing... you're slapping labels on people so that YOU can justify OUTRIGHT MURDER!!
.......
Take your WITCH HUNTS over fiction and STUFF 'EM UP YOUR BACKSIDE!
.......
It never takes long for the pedos to come out of the woodwork, does it?
"It's just a cartoon, bro!" "U mad, bro?" "So what if I tickle the pickle to pictures of a character who's drawn to look like a six-year-old girl? It's just a picture, bro. It's not real."
The Venn diagram of pedophiles and "cub"/"lolifur" fetishists is concentric circles. In a civilized society it is perfectly appropriate for law enforcement to keep tabs on such people at an absolute minimum, even if they haven't gotten caught touching kids yet. That's the sort of very basic thing that's implicit in any social contract. Public safety outweighs the convenience of a tiny number of people who want to fuck children. What, you have to go to imageboards to get your cub fap material fix instead of having it all in one central location at e6? Clearly this is exactly the same as the Holocaust. EXACTLY. THE. SAME. And it merits all the same responses. Clearly. Amirite guise? Amirite?
"But how does normalizing pedophilia affect you PERSONALLY?"
Go back to Twitter or Tumblr, nobody outside of those two particular internet spaces cares THIS MUCH about protecting the imaginary cartoon foxes from being drawn lewdly.
Also, literally every single one of your talking points can be reversed and flipped and aimed back at Furry Artwork In General....
If every L0lic0n Liker is an Epstein Cultist,
then every Furry Art Liker is a Kero The Wolf Cultist.
The censorship sword swings both directions, buddy.
Go read some Neil Gaiman.
https://e621.net/forum_posts/411786
And after you get done with that, go read some UNITED STATES LAW....
https://www.justice.gov/osg/brief/ashcroft-v-free-speech-coalition-merits
THESE ARE FICTIONAL CARTOON ANIMAL PEOPLE THAT SOMEBODY DREW ON PAPER.
NOT ACTUAL FLESH N' BLOOD HUMAN INDIVIDUALS....
Touch Grass, Tumblr Dork.
Go read a BOOK or something....
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2256
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/8
.........................
https://web.archive.org/web/20180525162247/http://lawyersandliquor.com/2018/04/f...
Take a look, it's in a book -- A REEEEADING RAAAAINBOOOWWW!!!!
https://www.flayrah.com/9198/e621-bans-explicit-young-human-and-human-content#co...
It's literally the same argument that every 4chan troll makes against furry artwork in general...
Not at all surprising, since you ARE a 4channer, after all....
What visual aspects of a character does a "Furry Fan" like???
Cute Animal Ears, Cute Animal Muzzle, Cute Animal Tail, Cute Paws, and Species Accurate Genitalia...
TAKE ALL THAT STUFF AWAY AND WHAT'S LEFT???? A GAWD PLAIN BORING VANILLA HYOOMUN...
(or as I like to call them "Skinnies" -- the complete OPPOSITE of a Furry).
Anyway, why are we even fighting each other? The real enemy is 4chan and Kiwi Farms.
Fighting and arguing with OTHER FURRIES over an art preference is friggin' stupid....
"Punching down" at the other "sub-types" of furry fan will not make 4chan love you....
https://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Burned_Furs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T3Xz4s4yUA
Here, go watch this video Misha B Barkin did and GO LEARN SOME HISTORY...
Cuz those who cannot LEARN from history are DOOMED TO REPEAT IT....
"In a civilized society it is perfectly appropriate for law enforcement to keep tabs on such people at an absolute minimum, even if they haven't gotten caught doing the crime yet."
Yah know... you remind me of that episode of Darkwing Duck when Future Darkwing goes absolutely ape-shit and becomes hyper-vigilant and starts trying to arrest people before they even do anything....
Or a very similar episode of the Justice League cartoon where Batman goes absolutely ape-shit and -- wants to arrest people before they've even done anything....
Hmm, isn't there a word for this concept of "preventative arresting?"
Oh yeah, I remember it now -- THOUGHT CRIME.
https://archive.fo/2010.02.23-165707/http://byuu.org/articles/thoughtcrimes
I bet you and your 4chan / Kiwi Farms buddies feel good that you ended the life of Near / Byuu over some "lolcow" crap and an old ass article they wrote back in 2010. Yes, you Kiwi Kreeps and 4chan Freaks are such AWESOME HEROES getting that DANGEROUS INDIVIDUAL known as Near / Byuu to "an hero" themself... CONGRATULATIONS, HERO! (/sarcasm)
: P
While we're at it, let's give everyone on Earth the "Ludovico Treatment" from that movie A Clockwork Orange.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6hsbpL-A_E
That sound like the kinda world you want, Anon?
Sir, this subthread is 9 layers deep (I will be ten). The original comment is an anon, there is another anon comment about four layers down, and then seven comments of you replying to yourself. Nobody's even arguing with you. You're just shouting at imagined enemies at this point.
If I wanted to do some silly Poe's Law LARPING as an "Anti" (a fiction equals reality twitter / tumblr freak) -- I would at least make a point to ensure that my I.P. and the I.P. of Captain Thoughtcrime do not match.... anyway, their comment amuses me, they basically want a world where you can go to jail over a drawing... awww sh1t, somebody drew Mohamed as a ghey furry getting butt-banged by Jesus again! SEND THEM TO JAIL!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Je_suis_Charlie
Awwww sh1t, South Park did a whole episode about Muhammed -- SEND THEM TO JAIL!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx8wsjlDLS8
>>>> Public safety outweighs convenience <<<<<
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGum7-dIRyM
Justice Lord Batman : Think about it - a world where there's no crime, no victims, no pain.
Sane Normal Batman: And no choice. Who elected you, anyway?
Justice Lord Batman : Who elected YOU? The problem with democracy is, it doesn't keep you very safe.
Sane Normal Batman: It has other virtues. But you seem to have forgotten them.
...........
Also, that Darkwing Duck thing....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNHkILH7ZE8
...........
We're all getting banned left and right because we dared to participate in a Forum Thread that a good chunk of us already knew was bait from the start... we got banned because we each shared our dissenting opinions when the mods really just wanted more praise and ass kissing for SETTING FIRE TO THE LIBRARY OF ALEXANDRIA.... I say, what good is having a LIBRARY CARD if the friggin' Library is ON FIRE and burning to a smoldering pile of ashes??? Our accounts there meant nothing, our rejection of the Tumblr-ification of Furry Fandom got us each banned but does it really matter??? E621 is dead... it no longer has relevancy. A better website (like WILD CRITTERS) will take over and fill the void that E621 left behind.
SO IT HONESTLY DOESN'T MATTER.
Go ahead and BAN our e6 accounts for daring to speak up...
WE WILL FIND SOMEWHERE ELSE, SOMEWHERE LESS DRIVEN BY POLITICS
AND THOUGHT CRIME MINDFRAMES.... E6 ain't the only Library in town!
WE CAN GET OUR EDUCATIONAL BOOKS SOMEWHERE ELSE....
Hey SLFC,
I’d like to just toss out there that the way you are going about this is not terribly conductive to our argument. You’re right, but the way you are phrasing it is not. Aggressive behavior is understandable because we are all scared of being pushed further and further underground (and therefore into dangerous spaces which are either infested with loli-loving actual Nazis or people who make it their life’s mission to suggest that CSAM or animal abuse is okay and normal). Fear and panic is completely within the realm of what we’re feeling here. ATF, Baraag, and similar sites right now have a huge population of genuinely horrible people, and even IB allows AI generated content of minors which may be trained on real CSAM (note: as far as I understand it, stable diffusion is not trained on photographic porn; it may, however, still be trained on photographs of real children, which also presents and ethical issue, if a slightly different one).
This is not to be hateful to any of those sites, specifically. They need to exist, but it’s important we change the way we approach these things. Reactionary behavior and thinking (such as your long spam-like comments rehashing the same statements or, worse, potentially inciting harassment towards people who may otherwise have no control over what’s going on with the wider world, servers, advertisers, payment services, and the like) is counterproductive to the argument. Again, it’s not surprising nor are you entirely out of your gourd for reacting the way you (and many others, especially in the E6 thread) are.
However, that behavior pushes real issues aside. Let’s try and focus on doing what we can do (supporting these sites, asking for less censorship without harassing mods, linking scientific studies and legal discussions on the topics, and trying to clean out the actual predators whenever possible) instead of how hopeless and terrified we all likely are.
This one might be a bit more ramble-y than the last, and I apologize for that. I’m a bit “altered” at the moment. I hope I have not made any statements meant to imply fictional content (of any kind) is inherently evil. It is not. It’s just also worth remembering that there are some issues still present in the few remaining spaces, and we need to be vigilant of that. I personally have seen a great deal of people groomed into very damaging views of children or animals and consent in these spaces, because absolution in “free speech” apparently covers wanting to legalize CSAM or believing a child can consent to an adult sexual or romantic relationship.
Cub, lolicon, whatever, is not the enemy. Predators are.
Censorship of spaces like E6 is a worrying result of a growing danger to transgressive fiction, not necessarily the opinions of admins.
Everyone deserves the right to speak their truth, but incitement of harassment or harm should be removed, not debated. Debating these topics platforms them (I recognize the irony here).
Regardless, I hope you’re all safe in whatever country, state, or providence you’re in. I hope we aren’t forced so underground that we’re bumping shoulders (more regularly) with real predators. I hope things get better for fiction, queer and marginalized folk, transgressive fiction, and paraphiles who do not want to cause harm.
"""""Cub, lolicon, whatever, is not the enemy. Predators are.""""
Yeah, no shit... and InkBunny already did a MASSIVE purge trying to sift out the VERY OBVIOUSLY BAD APPLES who were using dogwhistle language to "signal" to each other what they're ACTUALLY into... that issue FINALLY got dealt with after many years of nothing.... no reprimands and no bans, but one day the IB staff were finally fed up and tired of it. Anyway look, I am ABSOLUTELY not a huge fan of places like 4chan or 8chan or Lulz or what-have-you. Any place that tries to bait people in with Furry Art but switches to "let's get you indoctrinated into hateful beliefs" is obviously bad... I get that... but E621 pushed those people INTO those spaces... by acting like a bunch of uppity snobby jerks, handing out bans and notes for the SLIGHTEST of grievances, they have PUSHED otherwise friendly and normal users into the arms of people who will gladly accept them as long as they can convert them into 4channers or Fruit Farmers.
When mommy only ever lets you listen to Christian Rock and Christian Rap, you wish wish wish you had the freedom to LISTEN TO SOMETHING ELSE... so these vulnerable people start to hang out with The Bad Crowd because it makes them feel more free and more accepted. Who would you rather hang out with, some grumpy Ned Flanders type person who gets mad at you over every little thing, or some "ultra edgy" person who never takes anything seriously?
The new generation of e621 mods aren't the same bunch that were around back in the Myspace and Livejournal days. These are not the FUN mods from 2008, these are "Current Year" mods who genuinely believe that EVERYTHING IS PROBLEMATIC and they have to act like your grumpy Christian Mother who says "YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT EMINEM CD!"
Naturally if you get jumped on and lectured a million times by overly sensitive people, YOU ARE GOING TO REBEL.
I don't like it when someone fixates on a comment I made and blows it out of proportion.
I also don't like it when some Twitter Dork says "REEEE, YOU LIKE TAILZ PRONZ, THAT'S PROBLA-MADDIC!!!!"
I don't care, I don't care, I don't care. I've been in the fandom longer than the Twitter / Tumblr Dorks.
And in 2004-ish, nobody really GAVE A SH*T if you liked Tails P0rn or Tiny Toons P0rn.
"PROBLEMATIC" wasn't even PART of our collective vocabulary, because TUMBLR & TWITTER didn't even EXIST YET.
I am sick to gawd damn death of FICTION EQUALS REALITY freaks from Tumblr and Twitter.
I am sick to gawd damn death of delusional morons making dumb accusations OVER 2D CARTOON ARTWORK....
People who treat FICTION like it's REAL LIFE are the problem... not the ART....
Your frustration is completely understandable and, again, I don’t disagree. Though I do have it on good authority that E621 is not any more happy about this than we are.
https://e621.net/forum_posts/412814
And you would be surprised how controversial the statement you quoted from me has become. Hence, many spaces allowing those people. IB did a good thing with its ban on those signals but, yes, it took far too long. A big reason has to do with reactionary hesitance to “censorship,” when preventing people from doing real harm is not the same as censoring art or taboo fiction. Hence, Baraag and ATF having a comfortable space for people preaching real harm to children and animals (Baraag kind of tried to limit those accounts, but doesn’t ban outright).
It’s tough. It’s nuanced. Living in the world right now is hell for most people. Let’s just try to do what we can, when we can, if we can; and step back if we can’t.
My ultimate philosophy will always be "punish the people who are doing real crimes, but leave the people who are just drawing and writing fiction alone. They're sticking to CARTOONS so they're not hurting anyone."
Anyone who is on some legit actual NAMBLA type sh*t can fxxk right off.
Anyone who advocates that "animals can totally consent" can fxxk right off.
But DRAWINGS & written fan-fic about COMPLETELY NOT REAL CHARACTERS is totally fine.
Those two things ARE NOT the same... it's False Equivalence / Moral Equivalence.
It's asinine and idiotic for anyone to try to compare Yiffy Art of Tails the Fox
to GENUINE csem of an ACTUAL friggin' person... it's like comparing an apple to
a frickin' BASKETBALL... they're both round, but are they the same? NO....
The Twitter and Tumblr People do not GRASP THIS CONCEPT....
Real Life is REAL, Fiction is FAKE... that will always remain true.
Also have you ever read Near / Byuu's old archived response to the
ruling against the guy who had those cartoon hentai loli books????
I feel like if any Twitter Dorks read that, they would flip their sh*t.
Near / Byuu was pro-fiction, pro-artwork... but if anyone saw what they
were writing about the Handley case, the Twitter People would have snatched
them up and BURNED THEM AT THE STAKE AS A WITCH....
https://archive.fo/2010.02.23-165707/http://byuu.org/articles/thoughtcrimes
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
"""" Hence, many spaces allowing those people. IB did a good thing with its ban on those signals but, yes, it took far too long. A big reason has to do with reactionary hesitance to “censorship,” when preventing people from doing real harm is not the same as censoring art or taboo fiction."""
BINGO... there is a HUGE difference between asking that people PLEASE not use Map Flags or Zeta Symbols on their profiles or advertise that they use such and such encrypted messenger service for the sake of the longevity of the website and the SAFETY OF ITS USERS.... and some mod going on a big goofy power trip and deciding to outright ban huge sections of artwork just because it ruffles their morality jimmies.
And to elaborate on that previous topic, if ~I~ ran Inkbunny or had any hand in it, or say in it -- I'd tack on an extra stipulation to the "No Map / No Zeta" Rule -- anyone who is caught advertising a Session code on their profile gets a warning to take it down, and if they don't comply after being asked nicely, YOU'RE GONE, OUT... GOOD BYE.... I would add Telegram into that too but sadly TOO MANY people use it for such a rule to be feasibly enforced... a lot of people would also probably push back against such a decision, but I feel like advertising that you use any kind of "encrypted chat service" is a huge glaring red flag....
We do not need people who aren't even furries making profiles on our FURRY website so they can trade gawd knows what between each other... that makes I.B. look really, really, really bad. And I.B. already has a dubious reputation as it is... so the sooner those types are kicked off the platform the better.
.........
I can’t say with complete certainty that encrypted chat services (Element/Matrix, for example) are entirely bad. People deserve the right to privacy. However, I agree: session codes are deeply suspicious and these are places where it is possible to trade and share illicit material. However, much like .onion domains, there’s a marked difference between people who are using their privacy to harm others, or just using it so their data isn’t stolen and fed into whatever algorithms or AI or whatever else. People have a right to privacy, and people who abuse that right should be punished. Although, as far as “session IDs” go, I have never seen them used for anything BUT illicit material.
Telegram and Matrix both have a huge problem, but Discord’s issue is so glaring and frightening it’s almost shocking. Discord isn’t an encrypted chat site, but it’s where most people are groomed (either minors groomed by predators or the vulnerable groomed into thinking children can consent to sex) and where most illicit material is shared overall. Same with spaces like Pawoo and Pixiv: there are massive rings on both. None of those spaces are encrypted.
The issue is, then, less with encryption and more with the fact that CSAM and abuse materials are more available now than they have ever been, while “cub” or “loli” (and any other transgressive fiction, especially that which is made by queer folk) are being censored at an astounding rate. It’s purposeful. Never for a moment think it isn’t.
We’re in the worst timeline, I think.
(And don’t worry, officer, I can walk this line perfectly! It’s wobbling, right?)
"""In theatrical magic, misdirection is a form of deception in which the performer draws audience attention to one thing to distract it from another."""
I wholeheartedly do believe that these pushes to censor queer created artworks is an attempt by puritans on both sides of the political isle to distract us from other much more important things... Also, I don't know if it's legitimately true but I saw a meme on Twitter recently that said Germany had "legalized" or reduced possession of CSEM to misdemeanor????? What the hell, Germany, what the hell... Ugggghhhh... Every time these Purity Fanatic Political Groups say "FURRY DRAWINGS BAD, ANIME DRAWINGS BAD" be very very very suspicious of the possible ulterior motives behind it.
"""I’m a bit “altered” at the moment."""
Step out of the vehicle and touch your finger to the tip of your nose.
Okay, now breathe into this tube for 30 seconds...
(it's a joke).
And DO NOT misinterpret my words please...
When I say "indoctrinated into hateful beliefs"
I obviously mean the 4chan & Kiwi Farms crap...
White Nationalist Neo Nazi beliefs... THAT kind of crap.
When one side treats you like dirt over drawings or JOKES
You are vulnerable to being indoctrinated by the opposite side.
Both sides suck ass, but 4chan is way way way more unpredictable.....
I actually have a lot of thoughts about this one, judging by what's going on here and some of the replies here but I would prefer posting it here. Though some of this is really a reaction to some replies and this one thing that happened on Ink Bunny that is semi on topic but not entirally. Sorry my comment is a little sloppy today.
I personally do believe this one user is reacting to this a bit too far and I do believe our anger should be toward I guess whatever forced E6 to do this, and not the owner of E6 alone. If I was running a website wanting to allow specific content but a law would get me into trouble if I allowed it, then I would have to avoid allowing it because I don't want to get into trouble. It's not meant to personally appeal to the furry Twitter crazies who wants to treat innocent furries like criminals over purely fictional content.
As for some cases of free speech (in a bit of reaction to a certain discussion), I actually am a bit mixed on this because I firmly do have a strong stance against banning any lawful debate in appropriate spaces in society in general, no matter how controversial it may seem because blame should always go to the perpetrator (including any criminal complicit) who took illegal inspiration from it. As I don't really want to live in a world where reasonible debate should ever be banned in certain areas because of fear, and to be strict, even if a speech that is legal to say but super wrong with no way to morally defend it, wanting something horrible legal, I would always prefer lawfully combating it with protected speech back as some absolute free speech advocates would probably say. I guess one personal reason why I care about this is because I worry we could ban good speech with clear good context because of fear. I hope it doesn't go there one day even though it actually did a little already maybe.
Also I actually went ahead and looked up what this guy was talking about involving Ink Bunny purging some people, and I believe I found what the person was talking about within a news archive but I was surprised to noticed the ban included people for merely admitting or saying they have the condition (even if they were clear on just wanting help and being against going after children) just because of a far fetching fear of the wrong people contacting them. I found this to be the kind of fear I was worrying about being an example of fear against speech that isn't the same as promoting it where the context makes it clear that it doesn't tolerate the bad stuff. I also find it hypocritical because I feel like the clear context example is even less risky than how some fictional cub content can lure the wrong kind of people in alone, especially with how that happens with anthro and some zoophiles, because in both cases some of these people does have extended preferences that could lead to lesser realistic fiction thus luring or so-called "aiding" in those including some that do want to hurt living beings. What is the answer to this however? Properly dealing with the bad apples (people who actually want to do the wrong crap for example) separately rather than ban all of certain fiction entirally. With this, I feel like this can also be said with lawful debate that might be controversial but isn't meant to even defend wrong doing.
Maybe the owner isn't morally against what they banned to some extent and was nothing more than a personal dealt with the site alone, especially since the same site I think bans certain human drawings which sucks for those who like certain human x anthro art but like it's just his personal website, but still I worry in terms of moral debate. I hope we don't go after or "cancel" furries who say they believe in rehabilitation over punishment because of some others fear of bad apples abusing that, those who say they worry they have the condition but said they want proper help, or debating against non-self defense violence for example I think.
Also going back more on topic. There is no evidence that I know of that pure fiction is a causation of people doing crime even if it's true that some people who liked pure fictional lolicon did crime. Take this one cub artist who actually did hurt real children for example, does that prove the art caused the person to offend? Nope because the person was already a pedophile or had certain other mental problems before likely. Heck I argued that if the person didn't have access to fiction in the first place, the person would probably go after real children sooner. Maybe it's bad if the fiction was destracting the person in wrong areas but again that seems like a separate situation.
There is also the "normalization" fear but I believe appropriate education is key to this...
Hello NRG,
I want to be very clear when I say this: I am not suggesting the ban of controversial speech by way of it being controversial. I am suggesting that websites like IB, FA, E6, Twitter, and the like should not platform ideologies which promote the harm of animals, children, or anyone else. These are not debate platforms, firstly (especially not Twitter, despite how hard it wants to be), and there has been a notable radicalization caused by engagement with groups which are, by design, indoctrinating people into their way of thinking. Indoctrination and incitement of harm or violence is wrong and I, personally, do not believe it falls under free speech. This would include discussions on these platforms such as “minors can consent to sex with adults,” “animals actually enjoy being raped,” and “x race of people are lesser than y race and it is our responsibility to guide these savages.” Feel free to place any similar dangerous or cult-like ideologies here, as there’s plenty not covered.
Freedom of speech (in America) secures your right to speak openly for or against whatever political side you are supporting, criticize the current government, and similar. It does not cover art websites and hellholes like Twitter which are subject to their own personal TOS, and thus, are free to make their own rules. I do not agree with the censorship of fiction, transgressive or otherwise, but it is also completely within the rights of the website to ban certain things if they so choose. Still, the censorship sucks, especially when it is effecting harmless artists and not actually doing anything about the real problems festering in these sites and communities.
None of these websites are equipped for discussions related to paraphilic disorders, or really, any psychological disorder, disability, illness, or whatever else. Because they are not equipped for these discussions (as they are art websites first and foremost), this has allowed harmful ideologies to spread. Even among MAPs it is well known that “pro-contact” (the belief that minors can consent to sex, and should be engaged with sexually by adults) is becoming a much more prevalent ideology, and how damaging this is to them overall. It implicates innocent paraphiles who do not wish to do harm, and want help. This was made even more unfortunate when MAP and zoo symbols (pride-related or not) were overtaken by these groups and associated with the sharing and spread of illicit material (see: https://inkbunny.net/j/495413#commentid_2639689 and https://inkbunny.net/j/495413#commentid_2644707), not simply the desire to discuss and be open about their struggles and/or treatment. I am 110% pro-rehabilitation, treatment, and not treating paraphilic disorders as a “ticking time bomb,” because we have plenty of evidence to suggest that they aren’t. The number one factor in offending is typically isolation and stigmatization, which prevents them from getting help. Sadly, that does not undo the damage that bad actors have done to the community, and it’s become a cesspit of “contact discourse” and soliciting illegal material. There’s a very real problem here that has no easy answer, and a website meant for fictional art certainly isn’t the place to try and figure all that out.
It’s important to remember that incitement of harassment and harm is different from having a controversial opinion. Saying “the legalization of x material lowers the rate of y crimes” would be different than saying “we must legalize bestiality porn because animals can consent and if it’s not illegal, then it’s not a crime, therefore crime rates go down” or other such nonsense. Controversial speech has its places, certainly. Consider having a blog! Or just use Twitter. (Not specifically directed at you, more of a general statement.)
But yes, this has gotten off topic, and I apologize for that. You’re correct: there is presently no evidence that correlates fictional violence or sex with increased harm in the real world. In fact, quite the opposite. Many studies suggest that the availability of such content actually lowers rates of offense. There is also no correlation between sexual depictions of fictional minors (cubs, lolicon, etc) and clinical pedophilic disorders. A pedophilic disorder must be present first, and a study done on VirPed actually suggested that it’s not “real enough” for some of them. Because, again, paraphilic disorders are about the real world, not drawings.
A predator is going to prey on someone regardless of what community they are in. YouTube, furry, brony, none of that matters. There’s rotten people everywhere. It’s just our job to push them out when they crop up, lest we’re thought to be sweeping it under the rug.
“Normalization” is as much of a buzzword as “problematic.” People have no idea how to use it. It’d be best applied to things like Victoria’s Secret having a line of underwear for minors, rather than some “gross” drawings of cubs on IB.
Hope this has cleared things up.
Thanks for the respond. Haha
I should clarify that when I mean free speech, I meant the default and the idea behind absolute legal speech in debate for morality, so like say a furry who believes in letting people debate even what may be considered dangerous but still legal to say because the furry believes in absolute free legal speech like some places of internet likes to believe. I actually myself did see some arguments from a certain taboo topic that I found interesting from a certain group because of some logic growing up (which I won't say here but it's an example maybe). It's probably dangerous but techionally there was points I found fair alone and didn't want to believe in censorship of that (in terms of idealogy of legal freedom of debate and morality) even if it might trigger fear or something similar, when it comes to what is moral within people talking in the furry fandom to a degree.
But anyway for some of the examples you provided, some of it probably does fall under constitional free speech but not sure if false info of legality is one of them. Of course, a private website does have a right to ban it, just that I was thinking in terms of free lawful debate in general within the fandom and the ethics of respecting people having reason behind it. Say for example, that website Peter Singer supported to combat "cancel culture" and a furry was like, there is this very taboo article in it that may have bad idealogy but I find some points about the website message interesting and the article might be a good example to a bigger picture or some points in article good (if there really is, I am not too sure myself).
I also believe some people on certain art sites can handle it and I did in the past did attempt debate about phycology and paralhilia to some degree in a big art site. But it wasn't a let's normalize pedophilia flat out or something like that but more like "studies prove this or that when handling how these people get help" kinda stuff, similar to one thing to said here I think. Sorry I was saying this part because you said it's bad for this topic to be handled alone on some art sites but I don't entirally agree with it unless you meant the really bad kind of baseless speech or certain other ones.
I do want to personally note that I probably am on the side of say banning a message coming out as a "MAP" if it's not clear as to why or clear for the wrong reason because of how very dangerous that is when it comes to specific places too, but at the same time some of my stuff was just speaking from a bigger general idea of social issues and debate. Haha
I also should clarify that I do not believe children can consent.
There are also a couple of taboo arguments I did grew up with I still find interesting even today due to the arguments alone but a part of me wishes I could see some debunked so I don't have to deal with having it anymore. Hahaha
I should also note that for one argument you said, I don't believe all predators are by default trying to do illegal acts because I do believe some do try to get help, redemption belief stuff, that kind of stuff but I can 100% agree with banning people attempting to break the law and banning people trying to do wrong that does hurt but legal. And for who is changed, that's up for debate I guess.
---
Also involving another user replying to me, I want to point out my argument involving pure fiction was toward idealogy in general that actually does think pure fiction does itself cause people to offend, but pointed out that in some cases there could be wrong spots (say a person attracted to children going to a place filled with real children and the fiction was in that location, luring them there with the real children being there, which isn't good.) At the same time, if say one had pure fiction alone away from children but then decides to go after a real child from that point, then I fully blame the predator, not the fiction. For sure I think. Anyway my argument was more toward the idea I didn't agree with and wasn't meant to a reply to anyone personally. Also for personal sake I hope anyone in the debate here is an adult since I wouldn't feel comfort if anyone here is a minor.
I don’t disagree on any of your major points. “Harmful” speech, or that which incites violence or harassment, should most definitely be catalogued for future generations. Denial of its existence would be ignorant at best, and outright harmful a worse. Interestingly, there’s a great tumblr post about “Birth of a Nation” (one of the most vile and raciest pieces of cinema generally talked about) and why it’s important that we not erase the fact that it happened.
It’s also true that there are some good points in some of these debates! A lot of MAP-ideologically aligned people will talk about youth rights, which I think is extremely important. Sadly, the bad actors will then twist that important discussion for their own ends. This is where I think problems start to arise, and what I think should not be welcome on these sites meant for furry art. Not to say that we can’t have thoughtful discussions on them, of course. Also, yes, the ability to discuss harmful ideologies, how they do harm, and the like is important! It’s just a matter of “where and when is this appropriate?”
And I apologize if what I said implied 100% of predators were incapable of reform in some way. That is absolutely untrue. I meant more that, for example, grooming cannot be done on accident (regardless of who/what you are grooming). One-off offenders without this kind of history would be a different story, as far as I currently understand it. Again, sorry if I came off as insensitive in that aspect. I very much want people to be able to get help and reform whenever possible. At the end of the day, it is a mental illness.
(God I hope no one here is a minor… yeesh.)
Thanks for the civil response.
I'm glad you don't seem to be the person to try to censor someone who has a different but reasonible opinion that may seem very off if I'm assuming correctly of course.
As for the other part, I am not sure if you are saying someone who groomed cannot be redeemable like forever or you meant a person currently attempting to do try that. I tend to believe that any intentional choice that is bad is based off a broken brain which ideally should be fixed in the future as someone who prefers a neurolaw justice.
By the way sorry if I seemed a little late. Was taking a break. Haha
The reason we decided to prevent such declarations on Inkbunny was that we were actually seeing the behaviour described, not that we merely suspected or feared it happening. Did it necessarily happen in every situation? No, but it was common enough that we believe most accounts asserted to be operated by a paedophile/MAP were contacted in this manner, and many were created for that purpose. Moreover, sex with RL humans of any age is decidedly outside our topic area; it's not like we're running a support group with staff members trained to supervise such discussions. The only reason we allowed it for so long is that such debate itself was ultimately between adults.
We hopefully made it clear that furry art depicting fictional situations was not the target, except where it was being used as a proxy for such self-declarations (and yes, this has happened as well).
Oh hey, I actually didn't noticed your response to me. Now I did. :P
I think I am aware that it was due to what has happened rather than fear (though I think it's techionally both due to not sure how to handle it in case there is better), but I think my main point on one thing was that declaring such condition with a proper type of context was a separate situation that I feel is so separate that the risk factor of such separate thing alone would be it's own (and more akin with fear), and which is why I compared it with how sometimes pure fiction of certain cubs that I assume is still allowed can sometimes bring in the world wrong people.
Im now curious what you or any other owner if any would do if it turned out some cub artists was contacted over merely drawing pure fiction art that doesn't even say "pedophilia" or "MAP" by the same problemic (the people sharing illegal content) type of user?
As for the human stuff, I couldn't remember if it banned all human fiction or it was just IRL human, if it was only IRL human then my bad for assuming. Though I'm sadden this might still ban harmless consensual with adult self insert stuff but oh well. Haha
I'm pretty sure some are already contacted for that purpose but we have a good history of those artist turning around and filing support tickets with concerns when they do, which tends to discourage such behaviour. It was really the greatly reduced risk of consequences that was the issue - and most of these accounts were very obviously around to fish for contacts, in a way we didn't really see to such an extent before lockdown.
Inkbunny does allow art and stories with humans nowadays - for the first few months, it didn't - but you're meant to stop before getting to any sexual situations (let's say "kissing with tongue" is just over the line). This is alas not always followed or pushed to the limit, but such is life.
"""""Take this one cub artist who actually did hurt real children for example, does that prove the art caused the person to offend? Nope because the person was already a pedophile or had certain other mental problems before likely. Heck I argued that if the person didn't have access to fiction in the first place, the person would probably go after real children sooner. Maybe it's bad if the fiction was destracting the person in wrong areas but again that seems like a separate situation.""""
You know that I agree with this take, right? It's Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc (the counter point to which is, AS YOU SAID YOURSELF, Correlation Does Not Equal Causation). When someone does a skool sh00ting and the so-called "investigators" like Jack Thompson dig through his personal items like his CD's and video games and he spots something "problematic" like an ICP album or a GTA game and says "AH-HAH, it was THIS that made him do that sh00ting!" That's a Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc.
Just because he had those CD's or Games doesn't mean they are the CAUSE / TRIGGER that caused it!
As for whether or not someone draws cub being used as some kind of "Litmus Test" well it doesn't always work! What about Frank Gembeck??? He was a fairly popular Furry Artist back in the EARLY DAYS of this fandom, that Frank Gembeck guy never drew one single piece of Furry Artwork that could even be classified as being "Cub" and YET -- Frank was STILL busted for having entire hard drives worth of actual genuine CSEM.... so clearly whether or not someone draws Cub Art or consumes Cub Art isn't the most perfect measuring stick for "purity."
As for "canceling furries" -- do you remember the situation with Hearth Fox where they were constantly being harassed and called a Dog Fxxker despite not actually being a z00phile??? You wanna know the reason why Hearth Fox was being attacked online??? Because they defended a friend who drew or consumed Feral Furry Art... and people on Twitter actually threatened to beat up Hearth Fox or STEAL their Wiggle Fox puppet... Hearth Fox didn't say anything out of the ordinary either, all they did was say "Cartoon Drawings Aren't Real" -- a sentiment I personally AGREE WITH...
Hearth Fox didn't deserve that level of concentrated HATE... but of course, leave it to New Puritan Furs on Twitter to take things out of context and BLOW IT OUT OF PROPORTION.... you CANNOT trust the New Generation of Furries to behave nicely, because years and years of Tumblr and Twitter Indoctrination has made them RABID & BLOODTHIRSTY & HATEFUL....
This is not the same Furry Fandom of the middle 2000s... it's a whole different animal.... (hahaha, get it?).... the Old Generation didn't care one little bit if a person drew Buster Bunny or Tails pr0nz... the Old Generation didn't care one little bit if you drew Lion King or Balto pr0nz or Scooby Doo pr0nz... the Old Generation didn't care if you did weird kinky acts with your inanimate cartoon Plushies... nobody CARED about any of that....
BUT THE "NEW GENERATION" CARES... and they will straight up BURN YOU AT THE STAKE for it.... they're INSANE.
Counterpoint: people were always insane.
well, i saw this coming a mile away.
from the bottom of page 33 of the relevant e621 forum thread.
Hal Greaves: "Ookay so since we are starting up this godwins law nonsense I am going to say this thread has ran its course and will be locking it. There was no reason to get this ridiculous and you were all warned already. Do not make additional threads on this topic.
The OP will be updated with relevant information as it comes in. Stay tuned."
from NotMeNotYou's OP post (edited by Hal Greaves): "Thank you for your understanding, as this was not an easy decision for us to make"
the standard corpo "F YOU" line.
everything about this situation has been shady af with the staff intentionally being as vague and obscure as possible while refusing to give ANY clarification or transparency on why they did this and lying about it being a political thing.
and i'm pretty sure the reason they did give people advanced warning about this happening is the exact same as back when they made the "no patreon" rule change: money AND so that people wouldn't be able to rush the site and rescue the content being purged. that was an intentional decision the staff made and it was NOT a difficult one.
this whole situation is because of Fing money. not politics, MONEY!
politics..."contentious content"...that's just the BS smoke screen.
i have zero doubt something like this will happen again in the future and there will be no advance warning then as well.
it's not a slippery slope. it's a sheer cliff we're being kicked off of. again and again and again.
as for the staff's suggestion of taking this up with lawmakers...there's a thread about that now with some great points including how company money beats politics and how the...90% majority in the US barely even touches the wealth of the top 10%.
they made this rule change and did this purge for money and we have no say in the matter and there's nothing stopping them from doing it again in the future.
also, e621 isn't an archive and never was one from the start. an archive does not have a freaking takedown request system as the defeats the very purpose of archival to begin with. it's a glorified curated art museum while the permanent booru (just recently learned of that when it was mentioned in the thread) IS an ACTUAL archive.
i am HAPPY to have been permabanned from e621 years ago and proudly take that as an accomplishment seeing how far the site and its staff have fallen. 6 years on the site, having made the account in 2011, only to be permabanned when they did the patreon blindside rule change and for refusing to be woke.
they even turned against their prime rule of TWYS after that by introducing lore tags.
this purge is a huge loss but should also be a sign that such content needs to be posted somewhere that won't do something like this. cause e6 is compromised and is no longer a secure place to upload any content. likely only a matter of time till cub is on the chopping block there.
and 5 pages of the thread were removed when they locked it. it says 37 pages on the main forum index page but when viewing the thread there are only 32 pages.
e621 doesn't even want to discuss facts.
https://e621.net/forum_topics/45567
They know, and have always known, that their mod staff ROUTINELY abuse their power... and they do nothing.
https://e621.net/forum_posts/414077
linking your own comment means nothing, itd be the same as saying "source is trust me bro" at the bottom of your text. They could be locking your thread for any number of reasons and you wouldnt know
But I agree and only because I've seen it firsthand. Rainbow Dash was making ugly comments on carpetwurm behind discord and didn't do anything when he was being harassed before banning him because of a slip-up, whenever some folk gets a warning or a ban it's always the same admin if not the same 2 admins giving them, always. Also last but surely not least theyre politically biased, the lead admin would sooner delete transphobic posts than delete posts that directly calls for violence on others or even allow these to be tagged explicitly and directly for blacklisting. Not that one excuses the other.
https://rentry.co/e621-admins
Bad dragon is corrupt too, attacking competitors because they wanna be the monopoly. They better lose the llawsuit and get hit by a slapp suit in return
https://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/funny/spritz-the-seadragon-750241
Well, by the looks of it they think specific models have been cloned. If so, it's hard to have too much sympathy for the New York competitors - although I might have gone with a design patent rather than copyright to protect the designs in question.
Hahahahah, as if Bad Dragon was even the FIRST AND ONLY company to come up with the concept of fake rubber animal wangs. Zeta Creations was doing the same sh1t... they gunna sue them too? I get it if they're copying entire design molds but Bad Dragon wasn't even the first or only "fake rubber animal wangs" seller on the internet.
Amazing that the administrators are crying that their "Authoritarian governments" are "unfairly coercing" them to remove *pedophilic content* as if it isn't one of the most UNANIMOUSLY AGREED UPON TO BE ILLEGAL AND IMMORAL THINGS IN THE WORLD. I'd call the US Government *relaxed* for not dealing more severely with the 200th most popular website in the states openly hosting cp, and that's not even talking about BD's long and "interesting" history of connection with various z**phile rings globally. Freedom of information is usually a good thing but you have to draw the line somewhere, and most would agree the line is *waaaaaay* before famous websites hosting shit like this. The main problem is they basically have a monopoly on nsfw furry content so every time you criticise them it just causes outrage when people are upset that the FBI might cut off their porn supply. Just download that shit and get off that website before the FBI decides to put you on a list even if you didn't look at the actually illegal content.
"Amazing that the administrators are crying that their "Authoritarian governments" are "unfairly coercing" them to remove *pedophilic content* as if it isn't one of the most UNANIMOUSLY AGREED UPON TO BE ILLEGAL AND IMMORAL THINGS IN THE WORLD."
fictional characters in drawings and animations DO NOT EXIST IRL! they are NOT IRL HUMAN CHILDREN!
that is why this content IS legal, ANTI!
To clarify better given the context of the more heated debate above i should clarify: my reason for wanting to remove porn of minors isn't because it directly harms real people but because it is made for pedophiles and this shouldn't be a "safe space" for child predators. There's also the fact it's particularly ironic you're talking about e6 here. When FA removed things like this i didn't care as much but the fact that it just enrages me so much that they have the nerve to act upset that they are being forced to remove content tailored to pedophiles from their website. E621 has a long history of invlovement with "those" groups, and they blame the government for trying to crack down on the global csa problem by removing content only pedos would have created or used. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees unanimously that pedophiles and zoophiles are objectively not things we want in this community.
"""""To clarify better given the context of the more heated debate above, i should clarify: my reason for wanting to remove porn of ANIMAL CREATURES isn't because it directly harms Real Animals, but because it is made for Z00PHILES and this Fandom shouldn't be a "safe space" for ANIMAL R4P1STS. There's also the fact it's particularly ironic you're talking about e621 here. When FurAffinity removed things like this, i didn't care as much, but what actually just enrages me so much -- is that they have the nerve to COMPLAIN AND ACT UPSET because they are being forced to remove content TAILORED TO Z00POHILES from their Art Hosting Website. E621 has a long history of involvement with "those" groups (even a staff member named Cl4wDr4g0ns outed themselves in an e621 forum post from 8 years ago, as a Self-Professed Z00phile Activist)... and they blame the government for trying to crack down on the global Z00 P0rn problem, by removing Artistic Content that only would've created or used!!! I'm pretty sure EVERYONE agrees unanimously that DOG R4P1STS are objectively not something that should be WELCOME in this community!!! BAN ALL YIFFY ART NOW, YIFFY ART IS 100% BAD!"""""
Please refer to this April 1st Post by the glorious, Godly, pure & wholesome Mod Staff of Lulz Dot Net.
https://lulz.net/furi/res/3736546.html
BRING BACK THE BURNED FURS, WE MUST PURIFY THE FANDOM OF ALL UNGODLY YIFFS!
.....
https://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Burned_Furs
.....
https://archive.vn/9zWOP
""""WE STRONGLY DISCOURAGE the support of acts such as b3st1al1ty, PLUSHOPHILIA, fursuit s3x and other things seen as "wrong" by Non-Furry Individuals (known by furry fans as "mundanes"). It will be easier for Non-Furs to sympathize and identify with Anthro Art if these elements are, if not eliminated, then pushed to the far outer fringes and rendered irrelevant to the fandom at large.""""
Misha B Barkin has a great video discussing the history of our GLORIOUS, GODLY LEADERS!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T3Xz4s4yUA
MAKE FURRY FANDOM FAMILY FRIENDLY AND CHRISTIAN AGAIN!
(please refer to Poe's Law, the above content in this post is a sarcastic parody... like Landover Baptist Church).
https://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1099/pokemon.html
"""before the FBI decides to put you on a list"""
Lulz.... Nobody in the United States of America is going to JAIL OR PRISON for having a physical or digital copy of the Sheath & Knife comics by Harmarist.
The United States Legal System doesn't give a flying frick about a Furry Comic where two fictional cartoon wolves shag each other...
...........
Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition -- "The CPPA is not unconstitutionally vague. Persons of ordinary intelligence can discern whether a depiction is virtually indistinguishable from a photograph of a real ch*ld engaged in s*x*ally explicit conduct. Contrary to the court of appeals' view, that statutory standard is objective rather than subjective. The question is whether a reasonable unsuspecting viewer would consider the depiction to be of an actual individual under the age of 18 engaged in s*x*al activity."
....
"...the CPPA is not unconstitutionally overbroad. The statute's "legitimate reach" plainly "dwarfs its arguably impermissible applications." Ferber, 458 U.S. at 773. The statute is aimed at hard core ch*ld p*rn*graphy and does not apply to innocuous images of n*ked ch*ldr*n. Nor does it reach Drawings, Cartoons, Sculptures, or Paintings depicting youthful persons in s*x*ally explicit poses."
....
"....Congress intended for both prohibitions to reach a narrow category of material -- depictions that are "virtually indistinguishable to the unsuspecting viewer from unretouched photographic images of actual ch*ldr*n engaging in s*x*ally explicit conduct."
....
"Depictions That Are Virtually Indistinguishable From Depictions Of Real Ch*ldr*n Engaged In S*x*ally Explicit Conduct Are Unprotected By The First Amendment."
......
The Protect Act of 2003 was ruled "Unconstitutional" for its attempts to bypass the Miller Test for Obscenity, it was replaced with the "CPPA" which does not attempt to criminalize non-realistic cartoon artwork that is not based on any pre-existing person who actually exists in real life...
.....
Matthew 5:29-30
"""And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.""""
HEED THIS WARNING FROM THE GLORIOUS CHRISTIAN COMEDY CARTOON "DRAWN TOGETHER."
IF YOU TOUCH YOURSELF IN ANY WAY, GAWD HIMSELF WILL STRIKE YEE DOWN!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leCCOR_Sz6s
.............
God is watching everything you do!
When you get undressed or take a shower
When you touch yourself for hour after hour!
God is watching everything you do
And he thinks you're a nasty naughty nympho sl-t!
You sinful filthy whore, you're going to Hell!
Your flesh will burn, your bones will churn, your soul will be torn asunder
You wretched heathen heretic, burn in Hell!
For eternity!!!
So you better remember!!!
God is watching everything you do....
...
REPENT, WOLDOOR SOCKBAT, REPENT FOR THY SINS!
You've got to -- Turn The Other Cheek (SMACK!)
Turn the other cheek! (PUNCH!)
Show the world how strong you are by simply acting weak! (KICK!)
Inherit all the world someday, cuz you will be the meek! (BOOF!)
Show them just how meek,
when you turn the other cheek!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlTVzfz-PCY
.......
You do understand that literally ANY & EVERY argument you can make against L0li-sh0ta artwork can ALSO be modified and used AGAINST FURRIES.... right????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmG5hgraqqs
Anyway, do you like music?
I really like this Christian Rock band called "Nine Inch Nails."
I think the "nails" are supposed to represent the crucifixion, but I'm not 100% certain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmG5hgraqqs
Did anyone actually MEASURE those nails? Hmm....
And come to think of it... HOW OLD was Mary when God got her preggo with the Holy Divine Jesus Fetus?
Inb4 "2cross 2 affliction" starts getting on my a$$ for mocking religion, lol...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p554R-Jq43A
XTC is pretty cool too... for an 80s band, I mean.
What are you even talking about at this point, you've replied to your own comment four times. If you look at pictures of kids having sex, there's a high chance you are a pedophile. That's my point. That's literally all there is to it. All of this shit about christianity and nine inch nails is just you fighting invisible ghosts. I'm getting tired of spending all day going back and forth in a circular argument on a news group, but if you're going to make a point at least stay on track with actual reasons instead of spam and memes. I'm getting out of here to go touch some grass and I advise you to do the same before you get yourself banned.
"""I'm getting out of here to go touch some grass."""
Awesome, keep touching that grass until you figure out that Fictional Characters are not Real People.
I no longer need to touch the grass, because I learned this information a long long time ago.
"If you look at pictures of kids having sex, there's a high chance you are a pedophile."
provide proof of this. and yes, you DO have to.
because this is the EXACT same as saying violent video games make people who play them more violent. you are using the EXACT same rhetoric here and it is equally BS without any proof to back it up.
there's an imgur page out there about people like you that is so incredibly long that the wayback machine struggles anytime someone tries to save a new copy of it. and on this imgur page is an absurdly long list of people JUST like you who make these BS claims about cub/shota/loli drawings and animations and every SINGLE person listed on that page is, THEMSELVES, a pedophile who enjoys the content they call for censorship of.
there are barely, if, any exceptions to this.
you're just a creep who wants other people punished for liking the same things you like.
Drawings, Treos... DRAWINGS .... it is absolutely necessary to stress that distinction.
Photographs of actual human people (or A.I. generated images based on real people) ARE ILLEGAL.
But hand drawn 2-DIMENSIONAL CARTOON DRAWINGS that are PURELY FICTION are ~not~ illegal.
....
https://www.justice.gov/osg/brief/ashcroft-v-free-speech-coalition-merits
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2256
https://web.archive.org/web/20180525162247/http://lawyersandliquor.com/2018/04/f...
Looking at CARTOON DRAWINGS does not make a person either a P3d0phile or a Z00phile.
That is FICTOPHILIA, an entirely different phenomenon...
https://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Toonophilia
But because the internet Witch Hunters need easy scapegoats, they will snatch up random people to paint their faces green and slap a carrot nose on them and say "WE FOUND A WITCH, MAY WE BURN HER?"
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071853/characters/nm0095665
"STOP, STOP!!! I'M NOT A WITCH, THEY DRESSED ME UP LIKE THIS!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf71YotfykQ
Please concentrate, SLFC, that is a comment from nearly two weeks ago.
"How dare you bump an old post, that's necro-reviving! BANNED!"
LOL.... Doesn't make my points any less valid, plus I have known Treos for way, way, way longer than I have known you. He isn't going to take deep offense to a simple correction and over-react....
See, the thing is you've been doing this so long that you don't even know what you've already said, multiple times, just over and over again. Okay, if you're going to do this another month straight, I'm going to need you to lock in, here. Pay attention and actually reply what you need to reply to make your strongest point, and then drop the mic and get the fuck out.
"""make your strongest point, and then drop the mic."""
Again, I have made MULTIPLE "strong points" -- you just choose not to read them.
Okay, then, sure, now the next steps are drop the mic and get the fuck out.
We're all rooting for you, you can do it!
Honestly, I don't even know which side you're on.
I'm like 90% sure they're with Rakuen but at this point i can barely tell what they're saying aside from telling me i should become a christian and a burned fur. At this stage i'm starting to think i am a burned fur because i've been called one 4 separate times.
The Emu-Dev known as Near / Byuu (who was harassed and cyber stalked to d34th by 4chan and Kiwi Farms) DID NOTHING WRONG....
https://archive.fo/2010.02.23-165707/http://byuu.org/articles/thoughtcrimes
4CHAN AND K.F. WILL PAY FOR THEIR CRIMES.
What side am I on?
I'm on the side of JUSTICE AND VENGENCE FOR NEAR / BYUU!
That's what frickin' SIDE I am on!!!!
https://gbatemp.net/threads/near-formerly-byuu-emulator-developer-presumed-dead-...
THAT MUCH SHOULD BE OBVIOUS....
"""If you look at pictures of Animal Creatures having s3x, there's a high chance you are a Z00PHILE. That's my point. That's literally all there is to it. And I agree with those fine upstanding Godly & Righteous individuals at Lulz Dot Net, we must join forces and BAN YIFFY ART FOREVER, ACROSS THE ENTIRE INTERNETZ."""
https://lulz.net/furi/res/3736546.html
Read it and weep, Child of God!
REPENT, FOR THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT IS UPON US!
Are there two of them? Like, one guy pretending to be the other?
Because you guys might actually get a Flayrah thread locked, good grief.
Why do you hate Rakuen so damn much?
What did they ever do to you?
Just curious.... be specific.
And don't just Ad Hom & Kafka Trap...
Show some actual tangible evidence....
Gossips and rumors and myths ain't gunna cut it.
Idk what the hell is going on any more, as an active user here do you know how i can turn off email notifications because i am really getting tired of this endless shitstorm? Can't seem to find a support email or anything
Oh, yeah, you're fucked. Sorry.
You can turn them off ... if you have an account. I'd say next time there is a tiny, not very remarkable "notify me when new comments are posted" box you can uncheck, but if you missed it, you missed your shot (and getting an account won't let you uncheck your time as an pseudo-anon, either). Really, condolences, this is something we've been bitching at Green Reaper for almost as long as me and Rakuen have been bitching at each other (we just bitch at each other, other guy, if we really hated each other we wouldn't both still be here).
This is ... actually not even normal for us; I talked about "belligerent tromping" but I think this is legitimately just trolling, and, yeah, get out now, once again, sorry about the emails, let's not feed the troll and hopefully nobody gets it wound up again (though given the topic, this could be a while) and it'll pass eventually.
Come join us over on Reddit, Crossie, you too Marxist Leopard. LOL!
https://www.reddit.com/r/e621/comments/1e1wjoc/e621_bans_explicit_young_humanlikes/
god
damn it
please just get greenreaper to delete my email from the mailing server
and maybe lock this thread while they're at it
Awwwww... you don't like it when people are allowed to speak their mind on a subject, do yuh? You would make a great e6 mod (and no, that actually WASN'T a compliment!).
https://www.reddit.com/r/FurryDebating/comments/1ajf8me/modern_day_furry_fandom_...
No, i don't like it when i keep getting emailed every time someone tells me not to use logical fallacies while using a murder to try to guilt trip me into changing my views on the morality of fictional porn. At this point i'm less annoyed about your opinions and more annoyed at the endless push notifications.
""while using a murder""
Which murder are you talking about here???
NEAR / BYUU? Oh I 100% agree!
That was not a willing willful self induced d34th.
That was a straight up murder at the hands of a bunch of
evil, sociopath 4chan & Kiwi Farms trolls.
The murder of Near / Byuu was an absolute TRAGEDY.
A failure of the system to keep that person SAFE from harm.
However, you are glossing over & ignoring a KEY POINT....
Near / Byuu was also staunchly PRO FICTION...
And you would know that if you had READ THE LINK....
https://archive.fo/2010.02.23-165707/http://byuu.org/articles/thoughtcrimes
https://ibb.co/dKL5QQ7 (in case you don't trust the Internet Archive link)
That being said, I will leave you and your buddy Crossie alone...
But just remember, you both threw the first stones...
You literally ~ARE~ Ned Flanders, because your sense of humor is practically Non-Existent and your taste is as flavorless as week old pre-chewed chewing gum... about as fun and interesting as a Christian Rock CD.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Rants/comments/15iqkdg/rant_the_purity_spiral_of_modern...
My taste in what, news boards to argue on? Why are you even contiuing this? If you want a debate make an actual well-formed point instead of yelling and replying to yourself. I doubt either of us can actually change each other's minds but you really aren't achieving much aside from probably getting IP banned from this website. Maybe you can ask e6 to add a forum feature where you can do this all day every day for the rest of your life.
""" If you want a debate make an actual well-formed point.""""
I did, ya stuck-up grouchy doofus. You just chose NOT to read it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/FurryDebating/comments/1ajf8me/modern_day_furry_fandom_...
Look, i'm leaving now, i just can't be assed any more. I have been doing this all day so let's just say i'll consider your point of view. I'm not going back on my views entirely but to be fair i did get super pissed off. I'd also advise you to touch that grass and take a break from this comment section.
I touched the grass, the grass turned to a burning bush and it spoke to me.
It said "Fictional characters aren't real, and if a voice in your head ever tells you to sacrifice a living breathing human person as a burnt offering, DO NOT LISTEN TO IT."
So spaketh the Bush.
Also, he told me his name was George.
Dubya for short.
""for almost as long as me and Rakuen have been bitching at each other (we just bitch at each other, other guy, if we really hated each other we wouldn't both still be here)."""
Eeeeyeaaaaah... kinda hard to tell from Words On A Screen whether or not you and Rakuen have actual genuine animosity for each other. And your "call out" comment was pretty rude and (from my vantage point) dripping with hatred.
I dunno what you two did to each other, but damn, don't friggin' k1ll each other or somethin'
Sheesh.
(also, wasn't it like this for the Short Pokemon Ban thread too????)
(Honestly, nothing new for a Flayrah comment section, I've seen worse in Youtube comments).
There's a link for this on the emails, no? Only, if you had posted multiple times with notifications enabled you may have to click multiple times.
It is always possible it's not working right and if so I apologise - I can remove the address from notifications manually. The subscriptions mechanism available to logged-in users is better, batching multiple comments into an hourly digest, and I think that's what most use.
Sorry about that, I may have been spreading fake news.
(It's been a while since I posted pseudo-anonymously, I forgot you could do that.)
So, that's sad and all, but WHAT THE ABSOLUTE FUCK does that have to do with the current situation?
"""Yes, as a matter of fact, I ~DID~ vote for the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party!" Because I am 100% confident that the leopards will never eat MY face, just the faces of the people I don't like!"""
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P9yCMNpV-I
Also, Rev Says Desu sends their regards...
Enjoy the unforeseen and unintended consequences of voting for bad policies.
Yah know whut? I really like that tharr Roary Raccoon fella.
He sure is swell! And pretty dang smart tuh boot!
https://www.furaffinity.net/journal/7608277/
"my reason for wanting to remove porn of minors isn't because it directly harms real people but because it is made for pedophiles and this shouldn't be a "safe space" for child predators."
bull. you're acting like fictional characters are the exact same as irl living breathing human children. they are not.
and it is that refusal to keep fiction and reality that leads to content purges like this.
It's made for pedophiles though, and you haven't said anything to dispute that
Then furry p0rn is made for z00philes, and YOU haven't said anything to dispute THAT...
See how EASILY your own logic can be reversed and repurposed????
What exactly does a Furry Fan find attractive about a Furry Character????
Cute Animal Ears, Cute Animal Muzzle, Cute Animal Tail, Cute Paws, and Species Accurate Genitalia...
TAKE ALL THAT STUFF AWAY AND WHAT'S LEFT???? A GAWD DAMN HYOOMUN... that's what...
Without the ANIMAL FEATURES there wouldn't BE furries, there would just be cartoon humans.
So hey guys, let's just PURGE ALL THOSE ANIMAL ASPECTS from the art, since ANIMAL STUFF APPEALS TO Z00PHILES...
Or maybe -- just maybe, a person can be a FICTOPHILE and like a FICTIONAL CHARACTER without being a P or a Z.
https://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Toonophilia
I mean sure it's a funny 4chan joke, but I don't think EVERY FURRY who likes Pepe Le Pew wants to go SCREW AN ACTUAL SKUNK.... and I don't think every furry who likes Tails wants to go screw an ACTUAL FOX....
These are 2D DRAWN FICTIONAL FANTASY CHARACTERS... not real things...
THE SAME LOGIC ALSO APPLIES TO ANIME CRAP TOO... it's NOT real.
Stop trying to gate-keep the term "fictophile."
Downvotes? LOL... like it matters. Kiss my ghey fluffy behind, 4channer.
You only downvote me because you know that I'm right and it pisses you off.
i wouldn't have as much of a problem with people like MarxistLeopardist except people like them have no interest in trying to stop actual irl pedophiles and/or protecting irl children from them.
instead, they seek to have drawings and animations of fictional characters banned.
instead of aiming at the actual threat, they aim at the harmless pixels on a screen and ink on paper.
instead of aiming at actual irl pedos, they aim at fictional characters that don't exist irl.
instead of wanting to stop crime which harms living breathing human children irl, they want to punish people for THOUGHTS and for the thought crime of liking something.
MarxistLeopardist, this content purge does nothing to protect irl children from pedophiles and it does nothing to stop pedophiles. they did this purge for money, NOT to help and/or protect anyone.
and you are exploiting the situation to push your inability to separate fiction and reality in your mind while projecting your own interests onto other people while bashing them for the things you've accused them of.
you're just another "anti" on the ever growing list. https://archive.md/U23XK
Awww SNAP! Treos the homie SPITTIN' FAXX!!!
** hugs **
I remember you lil homie!
I remember you from e6 forums!
You are currently banned from e621 and from Furaffinity too for posting unhinged nonstop rants about children's genitals
https://www.furaffinity.net/journals/treos/
I'm not Treos, you 4chan / Kiwi dipsh1t.
I'm SLFC from the much, much, much superior furry website known as WILD CRITTERS.
Secondly, I have never SET FOOT on Fur Affinity. I refuse to.
Btw -- the guy who runs that particular website, Dragoneer, had artwork of his Purple Hyena Cub character (Preyfar) in the old, old, old Softpaw Magazines from 2006-ish. Dude has skeletons in his OWN closet, so why don'tcha go after HIM, eh????
i never stopped...and, unfortunately, never stopped being punished for it. -_-
You are currently banned from e621 and from Furaffinity too for posting unhinged nonstop rants about children's genitals
https://www.furaffinity.net/journals/treos/
Wait this ban also includes Nekos?
If it looks more Human than Furry, then yes. It's banned under the new rule.
Surprise! Except it shouldn't be a surprise because they were explicitly called out in UK parliamentary debate for the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 which included the law on prohibited images.
UK is not the United States.
France is not the United States.
Canada is not the United States.
Australia is not the United States.
But of course, it all matters about where the SERVERS are being hosted, right?
And in e6's case, Arizona and North Carolina decided to be sticklers and change up their rules, lol....
Dammit, can we kick Arizona and NC out of the U.S. ????
Maybe we can ask if Canada wants them.
The United States is far from united on this matter, and practically speaking card service providers are far stricter than any specific law, and often stricter than VISA or MasterCard's actual requirements. Only this week I heard a representative from one of the big porn platforms talking at an Ofcom event for the adult content industry about how their card processor had demanded the removal of "dragon" dildoes (I suspect Bad Dragon...) over concerns that they constituted bestiality. Likewise, people dressed in fursuits - also an issue for those trying to verify performers. We also heard about how those trying to comply with the recent patchwork of US laws (many of which propose methods that don't actually work) have found traffic sunk like a rock - and departed to other platforms which didn't make the effort.
Fascinating stuff...
I get the feeling it's going to get much much much worse.
https://files.catbox.moe/i0tkbp.txt
Especially with all this "Project 2025" crap.
https://newrepublic.com/post/183710/project-2025-heritage-foundation-exec-threat...
because in this world money is power and control and absolutely nothing matters more than that.
anything the hinders the generation of more money is removed, censored, silenced, or otherwise stopped.
companies will do anything, and i mean anything to make more money even if what they're doing leads to the company's self-destruction. it does not matter as long as those running the company get more and more money.
you see it in politics. you see it in entertainment. you even see it in religion.
everything is created to control, manipulate, and exploit everyone to maximize one thing above all else: profit
hell, the Shell gas company literally owns the country of nigeria! i learned about that last year. it's not that large a country granted but it's a fine example of just how far this goes.
as for the internet and us lowly 50% of the population whose collective wealth and power is less than 0.001% of the top 10%... you literally SURRENDER YOUR RIGHTS AS A PERSON when you click "agree" or "accept" on a Fing ToS or EULA document to make an account anywhere!
people...for years for DECADES...throwing their rights, not as a citizen of a country, but as a PERSON, away for NOTHING!
people don't want freedom! they don't want free speech! they WANT to be controlled, manipulated, and exploited the F out of for PROFIT, POWER, and CONTROL!
no plan, no strategy, no action anyone has ever come up with in the past decade has done or accomplished ANYTHING to stop or even CHANGE this!
our whole species chose self-annihilation in the worst ways imaginable.
oh sure, some try to fearmonger...sound off alarms and warnings... sever years after the damage has been done. and then change struggles to start years after the warnings when there's no point in even trying anymore.
the only thing i consider more deserving of true hatred than this world is the human species due to the sheer scale and amount of damage it has done in the past TEN YEARS ALONE!
AI? AI is a tool. it's no major threat on its own. fearmonger all you like. you're aiming at the tool instead of the humans using said tool.
that's all anyone ever does. aim at the tool or symptom, NOT the root of the problem. always aim at the wrong target!
the things i've seen happen in the past 10 years make me wish for nothing short of extinction upon our species. the bad truly does outweigh the good that much.
---
i LITERALLY cannot speak freely and openly about hardly anything across 99%+ of the internet at this point. even inkbunny does this.
"hate speech"
that intentionally nebulous term that means anything a person wants it to mean.
every single website or chat platform or video game or social media platform that has this term anywhere in its ToS or community guidelines practices censorship and silences and bans people for politically, socially, morally, and ideologically motivated reasons.
there is a specific group of people that everyone, be they straight, theist, atheist, or lgb, are strictly forbidden from saying so much as a single word in the negative about under pain of ban or permaban.
i'm gay (aka lgb). you can say literally anything you want about me. but this other group? one word and you risk ban. everywhere
---
make the wrong political comment: ban
be rude: ban
talk back: ban
catch a moderator in a bad mood or on the wrong day: ban
---
all across the internet you have to dance on eggshells, practice self-censorship and police your own speech. a single wrong word is ALL it takes.
and it's all for the sole purpose of power and control.
the entire world gripped in fear of losing MONEY because all of human survival is now tied directly to how much money and thus how much power and control a person has in their possession.
---
we don't have to worry about going to hell when we die cause humans have transformed life into hell. INTENTIONALLY!
the worst thing i ever learned in my life was how the world actually works...nothing could have made me hate my own species more than that.
oh, and regarding the Shell gas company thing. that is true. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uuW4AP8M4M
"We're sorry!"
*** pets baby seal and looks into the camera ***
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15HTd4Um1m4
Ey yo, Treos! Check this sh1t out!
B-SKY IS GOING WOKE JUST LIKE TWITTER WENT WOKE...
JUST LIKE F-CHAN WENT WOKE, JUST LIKE F.A. WENT WOKE...
JUST LIKE 3621 WENT WOKE!!!
WTF IS GOING ON WITH THE INTERNET, MAN???
https://ibb.co/vJ34Fpk
I used tah think Blue Sky was cool, lol... but not no more!
Blibbity bloop bloop blah, UK stuff...
Personally I prefer the United States take on things.
Like Ashcroft Vs Free Speech Coalition.
https://www.justice.gov/osg/brief/ashcroft-v-free-speech-coalition-merits
But who knows HOW LONG that stuff will last
what with the legal and political landscape constantly shifting like tectonic plates.
Right now, the U.S. laws say that fictional drawings are not equal to genuine actual CSEM of real people.
But who knows what the future holds....
I pretty sure many of these anons are trolls. I won’t engage if I were you. Idk I’m new to this site.
""Pretty sure most of these Anons are trolls""
Nah, just the Anti Cub ones.
What do you mean by that?
Precisely what it says on the tin.
The Anti Cub anons are trolls.
The Pro Cub commenters are the good guys.
Retracting comment. They likely a troll.
They called Chris Morris of the BBC comedy news program Brass Eye a "troll" too...
But Brass Eye always had a ~point~
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUxRglIxAyI
.........
And so did the BBC comedy cartoon "Monkey Dust"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCywGhHQMEw
"BY THE POWERS INVESTED IN ME BY THE HYSTERICAL UNEDUCATED MASSES...."
i'm not trolling. you just don't like what we're saying.
Too ok be brutally honest I don’t have an opinion on what all this.
"Too ok be brutally honest I don't have an opinion on what all this."
Wow... I haven't heard English this garbled since the intro to the Sega Genesis version of Zero Wing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aYaO93UiYQ
..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvWZq1S9x0g
..
ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US.
I was at work when writing this. Give me a break.
Give me a break, give me a break.
Break me off a piece of that Kit-Kat bar!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nkcVz1mad0
You know comments like these make it seem likely you're a troll.
Holy fuck. I need better medication.
Thanks! Reminded me of a good song!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_utglUdN-s
Don't you (Barely breathin')
Don't you (Barely breathin')
Don't you (Barely breathin')
Don't you (Barely breathin')
...
From station... to station
Still on the wrong medication
I'm lyin' -- awake and
Due to the wrong medication
It goes on and on - and on -- on and on
It goes on and on - and on -- on and on
I'm barely breathin'
Don't you look at me this way
Don't count on me -- count on me
I'm barely breathin'
I'm so out of sleep
So don't you count on me -- count on me
Here's another!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIDdzuSJe-U
Heartbreak on vinyl
I've been missing you and how
The easy street is empty
The silence of the sound
I guess that the turn tables have turned
Round, round too many times
I wish we could just go back there tonight
I waited for you for at the record shop
Walked through the doors and the records stopped
Heartbreak on vinyl was the name of the store
Now the store is gone and we can't meet there anymore
We were digging in the crates of love
Well darling, sometimes love just ain't enough
Heartbreak on vinyl was for people I guess
Who fall in love in analog and never let go
Huh, that's totally not the mix ~I~ remember hearing on C89.5 (Seattle's Best Music)....
Here we go, much much better....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL4s537ODNI
(Logs on to Flayrah for the first time in months)
(Sees this Thread)
(Quietly leaves)
[Logs into e621 for the first time in months]
[Sees that they're turning into a copy of Fur Affinity, complete with bullshit arbitrary rules]
https://www.flayrah.com/8924/fur-affinity-expands-rules-against-youthful-appeari...
[Participates in a comment thread criticizing the decision of the staff]
[Gets banned by Donovan DMC for a bullshit reason with no tangible proof that I can easily disprove with my I.D.]
[Leaves e621 for Wildcritters and Lulz Dot Net and Ink Bunny because they're not run by arrogant snarky mods]
Sorry "Wolfmanfur" but I'm stealing you thing.
https://rentry.co/e621-admins-v1
*YOUR.
Ugh... damn lousy laptop keyboard, rassa-frackin' tiny buttons....
https://lulz.net/furi/res/3736546.html
THANKS, ANON! We'd just about got this one calmed down, then you went and riled'em up again. Be quieter, next time!
(But, seriously, apologies to Rakuen, turns out nearly two weeks later, someone does apparently still care about this shit, which is exactly one more person than still cares about Trump almost getting his face shot off.)
Oh silly Crossie, you are no angel yourself, you accused Rakuen of things which you have zero evidence or proof for.
You're just as hateful and malicious as any other Anti Fiction Freak, no surprise that you would side with those people.
Wait, come back, don't be a prude to the kidfuckers infesting this shithole
Got any proof for that accusation?
And don't forget the d0g-fxxkerz too...
since we are talking about FURRY artwork after all.
If every l0lic0n liker is an Epstein Cultist,
then every Furry Art liker is a Kero The Wolf Cultist.
Let's try to be more EQUAL in our unfair umbrella judgements, okay?
>> If every l0lic0n liker is an Epstein Cultist,
>> then every Furry Art liker is a Kero The Wolf Cultist.
Y'all mad a.f. cuz you have no counter attack for this one, lol...
Dragoneer died.... I never ~hated~ the guy, I just felt like he was being hypocritical and that I've always preferred his stances and positions from back in 2006... back when he was a lot more Pro Artistic Freedom and less Pro Censorship.
....
https://web.archive.org/web/20150821170440/https://forums.FurAffinity.net/thread...
....
https://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Dragoneer#Illness_and_Death
....
This sucks...
I know I'm late to the party here but I want to give me 2 cents about this.
I think it's a shame since absolute fictional content is always going to be 2 layers:
1. Is going to be that fact that it doesn't reference anything within reason that can be tied to real life
2. Is going to be fact that there's clear indications that you aren't meant to take something literal.
It's why for instance we can enjoy the works of say H.P Lovecraft (as much as I personally think he's overrated), despite the fact that certain works of his is with racists undertones at best.
Because when it's fiction we the reader choose the interpretation.
With that said, loli/shota-con is always an asinine online conversation as it'll always amount to the same 2 groups:
* Those who are to an unhealthy degree defending/obsessing over loli/shota-con
* Those who have no real interest in protecting children or minors but love to give out descriptive solutions
Now the issue there is that it's just a ping-pong debate, the anti-side will never admit that they just hate loli/shota-con art and stand on that hill but instead pretend to care about kids, they will say loli/shota-con= minors the pro-side will then point out how these traits exists in adult people and then we move over to how it's implied, etc. etc.
To be fair then the pro-side will equally never admit that of course this kind of content will have an infinitely higher likelihood of attracting genuine pedophiles to their community.
When the truth is, as long as there's 0 studies to show that jacking it to loli/shota-con is inherently making you pedo, there's no real argument to be had, even what MarxistLeopardist said is completely illogical, if loli/shota-con creates a "safe-space" for pedos... then ban those pedos who express this creepy behavior (in fact lets ban all people who goes around images and comment with really creepy "mmmm I would love to eat that ass")?
Since I think personally I just don't care if you jack off to raltz or Gardevoir ass, it's very clearly fiction.
And the real prescriptive solution beyond studies is to specifically understand what it actually entails and form safety nets to ensure we don't see an actual normalization of actual minors being sexually exploited, so far I think it's then better to "allow it" and have very strict communication standards, along with very clear gates to limit exposure and explicitly warn users about the content they are about to watch can be disturbing.
Since as long as loli/shota-con is in the grey-zone, there's going to be little incentives from admins of said communities to work with authorities on nabbing actual predators, the more we legitimize it in terms of ensure it's regulated but legal the better it'll be for everyone and ultimately if it turns out that indeed this kind of content just spurs on the idea of wanting to fuck real kids, then I'm totally fine with nuking all of it.
Sober response
Honestly I think part of the argument against it is the fear mongering idea that it itself is responsible for luring problemic people into certain spaces where crimes could be organized for example. But I never liked using this to blame the existence of any victimless fiction itself when the act of such organizing (e.g. the snakething situation) is a specific situation alone that could hopefully be prevented as a SEPARATE situation. If we do blame victimless fiction itself, we might as well all anthro victimless art assuming even standard anthro art "lured" the wrong kind of people too. Like you maybe said, it really should be about preventing the organizational stuff without banning any victimless art.
Heck I would say that victimless fiction can also lure problemic people away from kids, animals, and other vulnerable types during certain timing scenarios and I can actually see examples of it. Sadly some people think it's always bad despite the fact that its always been more of an invidual issue and scenerio. I can see scenarios where it can slow down crime depending on many different kinds of things. Even some expert researchers debatated this topic. It's a tricky situation in the end I guess. To be clear, this isn't meant to be about certain blantent broad support messages where such broad messaging is dangerous, but rather meant to be more individual case in some cases.
The issue I think with people who are against it is that they only like the descriptive solution i.e. having a piece of paper saying "this is banned" or a news story talking about an arrest centered around the thing they don't like.
Instead of actual prescriptive solutions that give actual quantifiable evidence that we can observe like regulation of communication, visibility and strict cultural norms within said sub-community has a much better track record than banning does.
Just looking at other political issues and you see similar results, the more we allow some form of something to exist, the LESS likely it is for us to have an uncontrollable situation.
And as you say just because you attract a certain audience doesn't mean it's unique in any way shape or form and this is an argument you can easily flip and say "If you show any sexualized content, that will attract people who think it's okay to rape/say sexist things to others online".
I think that the argument of "it draws real predators away" is a bit flimsy since you can make the counter-case of well because this person is almost passed out drunk at the bar every day it means they don't have time to be at home and abuse their partner, as a response to being concern about alcohol's effect on people.
I think instead that what would be considered controversial art at best (like loli/shota-con) can give us a clearer understanding of what we like and what we don't like, which makes us less likely to lash out at our sexual deviancies, if we contrast this with very sexually repressed societies for instance, on average they score way higher on say women reporting sexual abuse/rape and men report much higher on having simplistic/negative views of women.
At the end of the day, I think it's the issue that we tend to out of efficient-laziness appeal to physical aesthetics to quickly judge if it's okay or not when I think we should be much more thoughtful and aware of the cognitive/mental part.
Post new comment