Free speech and why it matters to the furry fandom
What is free speech?
Of the many rights which are available to us, none is as important as free speech. However, a combination of factors including the high-profile activities of the alt-right in the US, resurgence of right-wing parties across Europe, emergence of various special interest and rights groups and the ease and speed at which news, ideas and, especially, outrage can spread over the internet have led some to question its necessity.
The most concerning statements that I've seen in the furry fandom have been those saying that certain people should not be allowed to speak and should be banned from websites and conventions for holding their views and the idea that it is okay to assault people who hold certain views. In the light of this, I feel it is necessary to explain what free speech is and isn't, why it is important and try to highlight some of the ways in which it directly impacts the furry fandom.
I will start with the Wikipedia article on free speech which describes it thus:
Freedom of speech is the right to articulate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship, or societal sanction.
Further down in the article it breaks freedom of speech into three discrete aspects.
1. the right to seek information and ideas;
2. the right to receive information and ideas;
3. the right to impart information and ideas
In some cases these will be limited due to laws regarding privacy or similar rules but such cases will not be considered here as those limitations generally do not affect free speech in the way that it applies to the furry fandom vis-à-vis the expression of alt-right ideas.
As can be seen with the definition above, this right is not only meant to limit government interference with the free flow of ideas and opinions although it is often and wrongly interpreted that way. For example within the furry fandom we see freedom of speech misunderstood by Dogpatch Press who tweeted about free speech.
He can have fun in concept-land, the rest of us are on earth (and the US, in this specific topic.)
— Dogpatch Press (@DogpatchPress) August 21, 2017
Or even really smart people, like at XKCD, who put out this misguided cartoon about free speech.
Comics such as that fail to distinguish between free speech, which is a universal human right, and the first amendment, which is specifically limited to government interference but also only applies to the US. While many furry sites are hosted in the US and fall under US law, that does not apply to all of them and country-specific law is of limited use when discussing the broader implications of free speech for an international community such as the furry fandom.
Furthermore although government interference in free speech is something to guard against so are the chilling effects of societal sanctions. In fact, in his 1859 work On Liberty, which is the major work defining and defending free speech, John Stuart Mill expressed great concern about the threat to free speech from society as well as from government.
Society can and does execute its own mandates: and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practises a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself. Protection, therefore, against the tyranny of the magistrate is not enough: there needs protection also against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling; against the tendency of society to impose, by other means than civil penalties, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them; to fetter the development, and, if possible, prevent the formation, of any individuality not in harmony with its ways, and compel all characters to fashion themselves upon the model of its own.
When furs like @fluffigator say:
Freedom of speech is NOT FREEDOM FROM CONSEQUENCE
— Mombra @ Dragoncon (@fluffigator) August 22, 2017
One has to wonder how they conceive of free speech. The point of free speech is to provide protection from consequences in the interest of expanding ideas and opinions available for public consumption. If you decouple free speech from whether or not there are consequences— well, down that path madness lies. I would contend that a country where the consequences of criticising the government are imprisonment or execution does not have free speech in any meaningful way. And whether the consequences of free speech are dealt out by government or by society at large is irrelevant if the effects are the same.
Having said that, I will also acknowledge that there are some consequences which can occur despite free speech. If you exercise your free speech then there may be societal consequences such as lowering people's opinion of you and perhaps limiting future opportunities. However, such consequences should not be as a result of society trying to punish that person for their speech, excepting in cases where such speech were to violate specific rules of a particular site, to use an example most relevant for the furry fandom.
Such consequences could likely only occur after the fact and should be relevant to that case. For example, banning a white supremacist from using a dating site is just wrong and misguided if he did not violate their terms of service. As an administrator on a furry forum, I can say that we do not punish users for what they do off the forum; although such information may be valuable when deciding on the severity of a punishment or assessing the probability of them re-offending. It is also incorrect to pre-emptively ban furs from attending a furry convention a la Furrydelphia. This is essentially the equivalent of arresting someone because you think they might rob your shop.
These issues gain importance because, while in the past many artists and writers had their own small websites, the furry fandom today is concentrated primarily on a small number of much larger websites. While many artists do maintain profiles on several different sites, many others are only available on one. This raises the further complication that when a large website takes a decision to ban a user they can severely restrict that user's ability to interact with the furry community. This is perhaps an issue which has not been given as much attention as it would deserve and parallels with the real world suggest that it is something which administrations of larger websites should spend time ruminating on. Earlier this year, the US Supreme Court unanimously ruled that convicted sex offenders could not be barred from joining social media sites even if those sites contained children. Part of the reasoning was that many politicians use social media and that people "structure their civil community life" around social media sites. This is perhaps even more true for the furry fandom and would suggests that self-moderation policies, such as those promoted by Inkbunny, are the best course of action.
Why do we need free speech?
We should all now understand what I mean when I say free speech but the question then becomes "why do we need it?" Or, more specifically given the current issues dominating the American political landscape and which are driving the issues, "why should we allow the alt-right or Nazis free speech?" The necessity of free speech falls broadly main reasons; the theoretical benefit that is gained from a diversity of opinions and the practical benefit of protecting our own future right to free speech.
These days we live in a pluralistic and multicultural society made up of people from different countries, cultures, religions and more. The fact is that these groups differ in what they believe and value and, at times, these beliefs will conflict with one another. Obviously, we consider our own beliefs to be true; if not we would not hold those beliefs. But this is a subjective position and it is very difficult to say which beliefs and world views are objectively correct and indeed it may be impossible. If people follow different philosophies based on different values it may not be clear why one thing should be valued over another. If it were clear then presumably everyone would follow the same philosophy. As we can not be sure who is objectively correct, we cannot justify giving preferential treatment to one group, hence the need for all people to have an opportunity to present their own case and try to convince society that their way is best.
Even if one view were demonstrably better than another, when there is no challenge to that view, the reasons that people hold that view will be lost and it will become dogma rather than a reasoned position. By allowing different thoughts and opinions, we ensure that those views will be challenged and people have to continually reflect on what they believe and why they believe it. It is not enough to say that all races are equal. You need to understand why all races are equal and you need to be able to articulate that. Shutting down opposing speech does not inspire confidence; it looks as though either the censor does not know why the opposing view is wrong or it suggests that they doubt that their own arguments are convincing. And, if their own arguments are not convincing, then perhaps whatever belief they hold is not true and should be revised.
On the more practical side, we need to protect the right of free speech even for those detested views as this is necessary to protect our own right to free speech. Free speech is usually under fire by those who seek to suppress others to secure their own position. This is misguided as it cannot be guaranteed that your own views will always be the ones that are favoured. With time, society and laws change and, if you found yourself the holder of a minority view which was despised by the rest of society yet which you held to be true, you would no doubt want protection to say your part.
Global warming and climate change is of concern around the globe and is supported by an overwhelming scientific consensus. We need to be able to discuss this issue in order to try and mitigate its effects. In the US, this has been made more difficult under the Trump administration which has banned the use of those terms. Luckily this does not affect the entirety of the country but it should be cause for concern. Without the ability to talk about a topic, we make it far more difficult to find solutions to those problems and to affect social change. One of the achievements of the US that liberals, and the vast majority of the furry fandom, would have celebrated was the eventual legalisation of gay marriage throughout the US two years ago. This represents a major shift in society's opinion of what is and is not acceptable. Such a shift would've been much more difficult, if not impossible, without free speech if promotion of gay marriage had been deemed illegal as it is in Russia or if the terms had been banned as for climate change.
Now one might object and say that even if it were the case that we need dissenting opinions to further understand our own position or that we should protect speech that we disagree with, the Nazis are spreading hate speech and there we must draw the line. Indeed, many countries do, wrongly, draw a line at hate speech. However hate speech is not clear cut, it is subjective. What is, to one person, an expression of hatred is, to another, just a plain statement of fact.
Let us take homosexuality as one example. Much homophobia, as with many prejudices including the anti-Semitism that is distinctive about Nazism, is motivated by religion. If one were to say, "god hates gays" or "gays will burn in hell" that would be considered hate speech by some. To others, this is totally correct, depending on your religious beliefs. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, a piece meant to summarise the beliefs which every Catholic holds is clear that homosexuality is "contrary to the natural law," "do[es] not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity" and "[u]nder no circumstances can [it] be approved." Is merely stating your religious beliefs hate speech? Probably but we should not prevent people from stating their religious beliefs if it does not directly harm someone.
Furthermore there is an interesting phenomenon that hate speech only applies to speech that the person describing it as hate speech disapproves of. Seldom do we hear people complaining about hate speech directed at various criminals, in fact it is more likely that we will see such speech being hailed. Even in the conversations around Nazis and hate speech, there is no shortage of people directing hate in that direction. Whether that hate is deserved or not will again depend on your belief system and is the problematic aspect of forbidding hate speech.
There is a particularly good lecture by Christopher Hitchens on free speech that he gave at the University of Toronto in 2006. You can read the full transcript here but I will also provide the video itself as he is an excellent speaker and it is 20 minutes that is well worth of your attention. On the topic of hate speech and censorship, this the question that he posed for the audience and which is relevant now when reflecting on the situation in the US and our response to it.
Bear in mind, ladies and gentlemen, that every time you violate or propose to violate the free speech of someone else, in potencia, you’re making a rod for own back. Because the other question raised by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes is simply this: who’s going to decide?
To whom do you award the right to decide which speech is harmful or who is the harmful speaker? Or determine in advance what are the harmful consequences going to be, that we know enough about in advance to prevent? To whom would you give this job? To whom are you going to award the job of being the censor?
Think carefully because it will not be easy to change in the future and once you provide allow the justification that ideas you dislike can be banned then the question who has the power becomes very important. Maybe you are happy to see Nazi's speech being shut down, possibly you were also happy when Australia denied a visa to an anti-vaxer and maybe you didn't even care when the UK police arrested a man for burning a poppy. But you probably do care about the Russian law against gay propaganda, the fact that Saudi princes who are critical of the regime tend to disappear or the fact that Indonesia only recognises six official religions. But those are different countries; at least if you were living in the United States you could be sure that you would never have a president who might support racial bigotry or act out of spite.
Restrictions on free speech
At this point one might get the idea that there are no restrictions at all on free speech. There are. Some of these restrictions will be created by people through agreements – like non-disclosure agreements, terms of services and so forth – and others will come on into being due to privacy or other legal obligations but these are generally limited and specific to certain situations. The restrictions I will talk about here are more general; they are cases where, in principle, free speech does not apply and are generally where, to my mind, the actions themselves would serve to undermine free speech.
Violence
Free speech does not protect incitement to violence. The second principle at Oxford University's Free Speech Debate project, currently supported by 81% of voters, states:
We neither make threats of violence nor accept violent intimidation.
Violence and the use of force to shut down discussion or to force one's view on others is completely antithetical to the concept of free speech and we should find any promotion of it incredibly troubling. People then say that Nazi speech should not be protected because they believe that violence against certain groups is acceptable or even should be encouraged. However, the restriction on violence is toward incitement to violence or the risk of imminent violence, not to arguing that violence is acceptable in certain cases.
For example, in the majority of developed countries there is no death penalty for crimes. There are groups within such countries who believe that the death penalty should be reinstated. Free speech protects such a view just the same as it would protect a Nazi arguing that certain groups are valid targets of violence but such protection does not equal endorsement. Free speech would not protect people promoting the death penalty if they encourage vigilante justice as this is a direct incitement to violence.
This is of particular importance because many otherwise reasonable people, both in the furry fandom and beyond, think that violence against facism, often in the guise of the loosely grouped Antifa movement, is acceptable. It is not and that promotion of violence against non-violent speech, even racist and fascistic violent speech, is making it harder to fight against the alt-right for two reasons.
Firstly, the violence against fascists is not going to convince anyone that the alt-right is wrong. Now I can agree that one side has a much nicer end goal than the other but if you look at the alt-right and you look at Antifa, you just see violence. And I don't think you can say that the ends justify the means. We are talking about the kind of world we want to create and if we're going to abandon our principles to create it, then what the hell are we fighting for? And if Antifa is not abandoning their principles, if they truly believe that violence is an acceptable way of promoting their ideas, then I must stand opposed to them. Two sections from Give me the good news, a famous South African song from the 80's seem applicable here to whoever is considering violence.
You can't use guns to build a nation
A bullet never was creation
/…/
You can't use force to sell a promise
Dictatorship was never honest
I am certainly not the only one to have realised this and those that support Antifa's tactics would be well-advised to realise it before making the situation worse. I know people will argue that you can't reason with the alt-right and that is probably true for the leaders but who you do need to reason with and convince are those that are closer to the political middle who will currently be pushed away from the left by Antifa. This is recognised by some journalists, philosophers and academics, with Noam Chomsky calling Antifa a "major gift to the right." The Daily Show also points out the way that Antifa is going to drive more and more people away from their cause if they continue with their current tactics.
Second, the use of violence, whether equivalent or not, is now explicitly stating that violence is acceptable against those with whom you disagree. When you eschew violence, it is easy to condemn it from the alt-right. When you fail to condemn punching Nazis and actively support the use of force in political debates you set yourself up for trouble. If it's acceptable for one side to use violence then it must be acceptable for the other side to use violence. This is not a situation that we should create; we must oppose all violence, no matter who it is by.
This really brings us back to the point of who makes decisions. From an individual's perspective, their view is correct but other people are viewing the situation from different perspectives and acting accordingly. If you now say it is acceptable to use violence to suppress the free speech of those with whom you disagree, are you prepared to accept the consequences? It hasn't even been three years since the majority of the world stood up to protest the murder of 12 people affiliated with the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo! Once you open the door to violence to fulfill political ends, you can't easily close it again. And you won't be able to dictate which causes may use violence to promote their ends.
Deliberate falsehoods
Free speech does not protect deliberate falsehoods or lies. Free speech is there to allow the exchange of ideas and deliberately putting out incorrect information undermines the goal of those discussion. It is very important for the falsehood to be deliberate though. This is partially due to the possibility of having many different but valid views of the same thing, depending on what you value and how you weigh different types of evidence (although that does not mean that there are not incorrect views) but also because a falsehood due to ignorance is not the same as a malicious falsehood.
This shouldn't be controversial, no one says that a child lied when they give the wrong answer on a test. The child simply did not know and gave what they believed to be correct with no bad faith. Answers can even change as we learn more about the world. This also illustrates one problem with shutting down discussions. If we view those with detestable views the same way as we view the child, we can recognise that, just as banning the child from answering or kicking them out of the class, the only way to get a better answer is through engagement and education.
A further complication is that we do not always view lying to people as wrong. Some people think it is good to lie to children about the existence of Father Christmas or Santa Claus and it is necessary to lie to prepare a surprise party. In those cases you could maintain that there is no malicious intent so those lies are acceptable but that would still leave the door open for the classic "doing the wrong thing for the right reasons" paternalism. I am not going to try and follow those thoughts to a conclusion at this point but merely reiterate that as long as there is no deliberate deception, even speech which is objectively wrong at that point in time would still be protected as free speech.
Harassment
Free speech does not protect harassment. It provides the freedom to discuss ideas but harassment is not about discussion, it is about targeting an individual and making their life unbearable. But we also shouldn't confuse saying things which upset certain people with harassment. It is possible to ignore, move away from, or block people that are saying things that upset one but harassment would include people trying to circumvent such blocks.
The public vs private sphere
Finally, our attention must fall on the question of public vs private arenas. Free speech applies to the public arena and within private spaces it is perfectly legitimate for the owner of said space to add their own restrictions, provided those restrictions do not contravene the law. The majority of furry activities happen within such private spaces; whether it be on various furry websites or at conventions.
Sometimes these restrictions are due to legal reasons in the country of hosting or ownership; for example in October 2016 SoFurry changed its AUP to forbid Nazi symbolism in any context for legal reasons. Sometimes the restrictions are for more pragmatic reasons, such as when Fur Affinity banned cub work in 2010 over funding concerns. Others are due to the nature of the website itself; furry sites are not the place to post all your football fan art unless your team is made of furry players. While people can debate the logic or relevance of those decisions, no one is denying that the sites are within their rights to restrict content for whatever reason.
However, as was mentioned before, online social media is essentially the modern day public space. This is even more the case for the furry fandom which is predominantly online. There are no public spaces online in the same sense that there are public spaces offline but there are spaces where groups of furs can come together. Essentially there is a blurring of public and private which necessitates that any decisions made, even in the private space of furry websites, which impacts on the pseudo-public nature of those spaces needs to be given the appropriate amount of thought.
This essentially mixed space where a private site stands in for a public space means that more restrictions are possible there but also that people who do not normally have to consider wider implications of their actions now need to view a bigger picture. And this comes to the fore with the aforementioned content bans and the calls to remove furs that support the alt-right. While such actions may have the effect of creating less friction on that site they also split the furry community, reduce the diversity and tolerance that is one of the best aspects of the furry community and create echo chambers which limit societal change.
There is some evidence that, outside of the furry community, this might already be happening. Slate reported about alt-right attempts to "build their own internet." The furry fandom had small scale segregation when cub artists migrated from Fur Affinity to Inkbunny but many still maintained a presence on both sites. But, without contact, we have no way to convince people that our way is better. The alt-right will be able to flourish and recruit others with no dissenting voices to challenge them at any point. Some have said that you cannot convince Nazis through reason and this may be true but you can convince those that the Nazis might otherwise convince and many people get pulled into white supremacist and alt-right thinking due to feeling excluded. Actively excluding people is not going to help but contact and communication with them will. This is one of the things that Daryle Jenkins does and we see the same message in Angela King's story, a woman who was a white supremacist until prison forced her to live with other races and she fell in love with a black woman. Without exposure to different people and different ideas there can be no change.
The idea of redemption arcs is a large part of the My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic franchise, particularly from season 5 where Starlight Glimmer, the main villain all season, is finally convinced that she is wrong and, over the next two seasons, whose forgiveness and redemption we watch. Similar ideas come with Trixie who appears in an antagonistic role twice, needing to be given new chances before she is, mostly, reformed and later becomes Starlight's friend. Since almost 1/4 of furries identify as bronies it only seems natural that we take those messages and actually put them into practice.
Why free speech is particularly important for the furry fandom
I have already brought up several examples where I think we can learn something from the intersection of free speech and the furry fandom but I think we can go further. The furry fandom is a primarily online community and it is a community that is built around ideas, fantasies, art and literature. It is a community to whom free speech is particularly important and it has been since the beginning.
In 1978, between the first publication of the APA Vootie and the NorEasCon II World Science Fiction convention where Steve Gallacci's submission of an Erma Felna painting started the discussions that would lead to the modern furry fandom, we had the publication of Omaha The Cat Dancer. This was an erotic anthropomorphic comic, still sold at furry conventions today, which, along with several other comics, caused one comic book store owner to be charged with distributing obscenity. This directly lead to the formation of the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund to protect the First Amendment rights of those involved with comic books. From the start, the furry fandom has been involved in matters of free speech.
The controversial subject of cub art also faces legal issues in various parts of the world and, while many are not doubt pleased about that, that fantasy images are subject to such restrictions should have the furry fandom concerned about furry art in general. The idea of obscenity is not only limited to cub and some people would find furries' tolerance of many diverse sexualities and sexual acts to be problematic. This can, and has affected furries financially. Paypal has been known to freeze accounts that are used for commissioning yiff which leads to uncertainty in the fandom. This is not just a furry problem but it's a general issue that payment processors do not like adult material regardless of whether it is legal or not and which we should oppose.
Those issues revolve around adult material but even the non-adult material is not always appreciated and furs are not always treated well online. This should remind that when we talk about suppressing the speech of others that furries are also a likely target and many of the things that we don't bat an eyelid towards would be considered very strange and perhaps perverse to outsiders. But the major strength of the furry community is its acceptance and tolerance. Those are the values that society needs and needs to promote and the furry fandom must make the choices which give us the opportunity to do so. If we are not in contact with those who disagree and do not speak with those that disagree then we have no chance of changing their minds and building a better society.
Closing Words
Free speech is not the easy path but it is the right path. It doesn't mean that we just let bad ideas spread unopposed but we oppose them in a way that will protect us as well. Follow the advice of Carol Christ, chancellor of UC Berkley where the free speech movement in the 60's began.
Nonetheless, defending the right of free speech for those whose ideas we find offensive is not easy. It often conflicts with the values we hold as a community — tolerance, inclusion, reason and diversity. Some constitutionally protected speech attacks the very identity of particular groups of individuals in ways that are deeply hurtful. However, the right response is not the heckler’s veto, or what some call platform denial. Call toxic speech out for what it is, don’t shout it down, for in shouting it down, you collude in the narrative that universities are not open to all speech. Respond to hate speech with more speech.
We should be thankful that we have leaders like her and organisations like the American Civil Liberties Union who will defend the free speech rights of every person and every perspective. Because, as legal director David Cole explains:
If we defended speech only when we agreed with it, on what ground would we ask others to tolerate speech they oppose?
As furries, we should have learnt about the political use of fear from Zootopia. To quote mayor Bellweather, “Fear always works.” We must do better. We can not give in to fear of the alt-right and make rash decisions that impede our liberty. President Bush used fear after 9/11 to increase surveillance and introduce the Patriot Act to the US which reduced the rights of American and foreign citizens and remains law twelve years after it was supposed to expire. And, to remain with the theme of Nazism and fear, Hitler used the fear and confusion of the Reichstag fire to enact emergency provisions and take complete control of government from 1933 to 1945.
We know what happened in the past, we know that we have limits and we do not know who will write the laws of the future. We need to think clearly, logically and dispassionately. Free speech is the only human right which allows the discussion and formation of others and the progress of society. We should not throw it away lightly in fear of a vocal minority and abandon the principles which we believe in.
About the author
Rakuen Growlithe — read stories — contact (login required)a scientist and Growlithe from South Africa, interested in science, writing, pokemon and gaming
I'm a South African fur, originally from Cape Town. I'm interested in science, writing, gaming, all sorts of furry stuff, Pokemon and some naughtier things too! I've dabbled in art before but prefer writing. You can find my fiction on SoFurry and non-fiction on Flayrah.
Comments
"Especially since there are evidence that some animals consent from what I heard."
Yeah, see, it's THAT kind of shit that makes me worry that he MIGHT want to fuck my dog... NOBODY looks into the issue of whether or not an animal can consent to having sex with a human without SOME element of wishful thinking. X(
I think one simple point is this:
There is no such thing as originality, or if for example, Zootopia is original then so is Alpha and Omega because every work is based off multiple things all the time. To create something new, you have to combine things together.
Alpha and Omega generally feels a bit like it's larger chunks and a bit more reminded by some, but, and while there ARE some things that do make it seem more unknown, it's still an original film with things we've never seen.
Of course, you can have a film to just copy ONE plot, and only do that but with two different species, and that would just feel more rip off, though, Alpha and Omega doesn't do that either. But one point I can say, some things are meant to be spiritual successors.
Just like Zootopia for two-legged anthropomorphic fox and bunny fans. Note: I'm not trying to attack you for liking it, just a point.
Alpha and Omega is special to me, even if these days I don't have that much of an interest into the characters as I used to, but what happened is that it led on to being inspired with interesting subjects, and how it effected how I like things. This is not an obsession, it's just a normal way of getting more personality.
Examples: I was inspired to write stuff about critique because of the hate, I liked more wolf characters while not too sure if that movie caused it.
I loved the characters of the movie, and I enjoy the story that never happened with them, and hell, AS a movie, it's not the greatest, they should probably of added more, but I do have a problem with any suggestion that suggest change to something it is to something it's not as if it's "better".
I do like some other movies, but more as entertainment stuff. Less special.
I don't hate that person for saying the designs are "flawed", I strongly hate the person's behavior that were the insults, started a fight on twitter, and how he/she treated his opinion as fact on the "completely unoriginal" thing. I am sorry if that's not the reason by the way.
Attractive, and inspiring I think. It probably helped me develop into my furry personality.
I usually argue because I hate how some of the world likes to label effort creativity "flawed", and it stifles the freedom of creativity in the sense and in idea. Nobody wants their own hard work of effort to be called "flaw" because the wrong audience hates that part of the work when the purpose of such work was to find more and more people to like it.
After all, an example of awesome about art culture is how we have different type of stuff, for different people.
So, what I'm getting is that you're not really sure why you like the movie either ... which, yeah, okay, that makes sense. Self awareness ... not your strong point.
Freudian psychology would say this is revealing, but Freudian psychology is full of shit, so either this is just another typo, or what you're saying is exactly what you're saying; you're perhaps more in love with idea of the movie than the movie itself?
I think I do know. I like the characters, I find them attractive and inspiring, and it's nice to see a simple new adventure story with them. But it's mainly the characters. For how I like the characters may not be explained so tight, but that might apply to why some people like Nick from Zootopia, and/or Sora from Kingdom Hearts for example.
Alpha and Omega is more of a "symbol" for the characters and what I am attached is me "using" the characters and do new things with them... or at least sometimes. As for quality, I can defend something, even if it's not my thing... Unless maybe my bias is so biased that I can't really tell.
I think I meant to say that the story attached with them is new, it never happened before.
I actually find the movie Monster House more enjoyable than Alpha and Omega though, and I was probably slightly obsessed with it one time... probably because it's soooo good as an entertainment story movie. But the movie wasn't so special to me. Get what I mean?
You just don't understand how the world works sometimes I think.
Was going to write something long. Now I just can't be bothered. So instead I did something shorter and more sarcastic.
"Not it's not. Do you even know what "originality" is? If it was "completely unoriginal" then you're basically saying "every movie is unoriginal" because every movie uses something. And deciding that it's "bad" because of your length of what original is, ALSO subjective too."
Let's watch the trailer and see if we can find all these "original" themes and motifs.
-She's an alpha, he's an omega.
I'm sure no one has ever thought to use love across social classes before, right Aladdin?
-Two characters that don't like each other forced to team up?
My good friends Woody and Buzz tell me that has never before formed part of a story.
-Characters stranded and need to get back home?
Eh I dunno. I would've looked for an example but I couldn't. I was sitting on a large African island with some penguins and we were all crying wondering if Shadow would appear on the horizon.
-Toilet humour? Butts? Crotch shots?
My buddy Shrek says he's never seen anything like that but he did grow up in a swamp so who knows. (On a more serious note: Shrek is a good example of how you take cliches, tropes and whatever else and subvert them to make something original.)
-A goose hitting that wolf on the head!?
Rafiki. Simba. Do we really even need to keep doing this?
"That's still your opinion. Not a fact."
Right... ignoring that it won an Oscar so presumably it's completely terrible, just think about it. Did it give us technical advancements? Yes! They made a bunch of new programming tools to render everything. There was more fur on a single background character than had pretty much been rendered on any previous main character. If I was being petty I would contrast that with Alpha and Omega's models which could be rendered by a cardboard box. When I say they did the story well, there is basically no excess fluff scenes in the movie. Every aspect serves to drive the plot. Furthermore every thing links back to earlier scenes. Why bother, you don't care what I write, do you?
"Art is subjective, what is "original or not" is, which hell, you even admit Zootopia is also less original, but then you basically said that it doesn't matter because you liked it anyway (subjective?)."
You know what else is completely generic? My Little Pony The Movie. You know what I really enjoyed? My Little Pony The Movie. Do I think My Little Pony The Movie is a good movie. Not really. I think it was great for fans and critics were too harsh/missed the point but I also now it cannot compete at the same level as Zootopia.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
Just like EVERY movie. Every movie still uses a lot of ideas that came before. But if a movie like Zootopia is original, then so is Alpha and Omega because you combine existing ideas and do something new with it, which happened.
Zootopia:
-Anthropomorphic Characters
-Some relationship
-They must do something in the end, can't remember but I don't think it was new
-They live in a city and it's about it, getting some vibes about some other movies.
-Foxes, anthropomorphic fox
-Non-toilet humor, I think.
And so on. It's the same logic, especially.
It's funny how you're saying "getting back home" is bad even though the adventure can be unique.
The models were fine, I don't see any problem with it. They had a lot of detail, and the characters were smooth and likable like any character. Let's see you model a character, honestly. And now you're just insulting the creator's effort because you really don't know how it's like to animate.
That's still an opinion (the MLP and Zootopia) thing. Hell, when I saw some plot of it, it sounded kinda generic in a way (but I still need to research that), and again, a movie doesn't need to be unknown to culture in order for it to be good. Ever heard of spiritual successors when something is MEANT to be similar but with a new adventure, or another new thing?
That's what I see with these movies, but a little more "original".
Two wolves, loving each other, with an adventure.
Here's the new thing: "New characters fall in love, in a new world, with a new adventure, with even a "no bad guy" surprise". THAT NEVER HAPPENED as a whole.
You even said something that no bad guy was more "original" but here you are being less honest and saying it's "completely unoriginal" even though that statement is already wrong regardless.
Stuff about Cult of Originality:
http://blog.ninapaley.com/2009/12/28/the-cult-of-originality/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcvd5JZkUXY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJPERZDfyWc
Note: I might not preview my comment much, I apologize for any mistake.
"But if a movie like Zootopia is original, then so is Alpha and Omega because you combine existing ideas and do something new with it, which happened."
Pardon me for a moment, I just need to check something... Ah, yes, I see, that's where I said Zootopia is not original... Hmm, just as I thought that's where you acknowledged I said Zootopia is not original... Yes, I'm just not following how you're now acting as though I said Zootopia is original. I guess this is the not-needing-to-be-honest thing and it's probably a sign to let this horse rest in peace.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
You act as if Alpha and Omega being "less" original is a bad thing... So I guess it just sounded confusing. It felt that you were arguing something different at a time.
And when you said "completely unoriginal" that was just wrong.
Account abandoned and probably will make a new anonymous account with no trace of evidence of it being me. I think it's justified.
Out of context, this is a great comment!
In context ... it's still great, but, kind of sad who it's for won't be able to understand it..
Can you prove it's "great"? The person is treating his/her opinions as facts, and being completely bias.
I understand what I'm talking about I think, I don't see you proving that I "don't" besides treating your opinions as facts with little to no research. Especially when it comes to crime.
Was I talking to you?
I should be saying that to you in the earlier times of this thread. :)
"Can you prove it's "great"? The person is treating his/her opinions as facts, and being completely bias."
Can you prove Alpha & Omega is great? No you can't. By your own logic, shut up.
Because it's as good as any old Disney movie. Those who don't like it most likely grew up with similar. Not everyone did, so therefor, someone who grew up with Alpha and Omega would have the same experience but with this movie instead of the others. Plus the characters are enjoyable, and inspiring.
The only thing I can say is that the movie could of been even better by adding more.
Also, regardless, I still need proof of your side.
"Because it's as good as any old Disney movie."
No it is not, and it never will be. The Disney classics will CONTINUE to be classics for generations to come. The love that you feel for this movie will die out with YOU.
"Plus the characters are enjoyable, and inspiring."
Interesting theory, considering how the sequels only did LESS AND LESS with these characters. Inspiring indeed...
"The only thing I can say is that the movie could of been even better by adding more."
I whole-heartedly agree. More jokes that actually WORK, more twists and turns so the plot is less predictable, more chemistry between our main characters, more attention to environmental physics, more focus into whether or not the world should be more serious or cartoonish... Since we're both in agreement that SO MUCH MORE could be added to make it less terrible, why are we even at odds here?
"I still need proof of your side."
iMDB audience scores, Rotten Tomatoes scores, video reviews, written reviews, box office receipts, comments and forum posts... These are the only things which can create anything close to a "measurement" of quality for any movie. The problem is you've already preemptively dismissed them without offering any sort of alternative of what could BETTER represent the quality of a movie than peoples' reaction to it, so all you're doing is sabotaging yourself. But WE'RE the closed-minded ones, aren't we? -_-
That's your opinion, and it's false.
If this movie isn't as good as the other ones, then those other ones are just as bad. Those who hate it today are those who grew up with the other ones... same bias as growing up with Alpha and Omega first.
We are talking about the first movie... aren't we?
Well, by adding more, I mean adding, without changing any main concept. Sorry if you are in that same thought I have. Kate falling in love with Humphrey itself is enjoyable and no other movie did it. But I still argue, even if you agree with that, I still say it's still a good movie like the other movies as predicable is completely subjective, but I do think it would be better than nothing to add more of course.
Critic opinions are not a source of science, and neither is popular opinion "outside" of critics. Critics are not always right either.
If Alpha and Omega did it's legal job for what it's trying to aim for, it did a good job maybe. It offers a lot of effort alone, and has gained a lot of people enjoying it, for what it's trying to be so far. That's why I argued it's good... just could be even better.
Also... IMDb's raiting isn't a bad score. It's slightly over the half mark. RT's average rating is slightly less though.
Account abandoned and probably will make a new anonymous account with no trace of evidence of it being me. I think it's justified.
"If this movie isn't as good as the other ones, then those other ones are just as bad."
...If this movie isn't as good as the other ones, then those other ones are just as bad...
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talking! X(
Let's pretend we have 4 boxes. 3 are blue, and 1 is red. I point out to you that these 3 boxes are blue, and the remaining box is red. Then you refute that statement by saying "If this box isn't as blue as the other ones, then those other ones are just as red."
PLEASE tell me you see the logical flaw in that statement!!! I'm BEGGING you!!!
"Sorry if you are in that same thought I have."
You're sorry that I agree with you that this movie could've had a lot more going for it? You really have no idea what you're saying, do you?
"Critic opinions are not a source of science, and neither is popular opinion "outside" of critics."
That's why I said CLOSEST thing to an actual measurement of quality. And as predicted, you haven't provided a more concrete/reliable measurement of quality aside from YOUR saying so.
"Critics are not always right either."
"IMDb's raiting isn't a bad score. It's slightly over the half mark."
Which only confirms earlier assessments that you only see merit in the opinions of others when they match your own.
Can you prove that it's "stupid"?
I already explained why the movie is either: just as good or close, or all is bad.
Anyone who couldn't have fun with the story of the movie because "they've seen similar" is someone who grew up differently. And those who never seen such story, and saw the Alpha and Omega one first, would like it. All is bias. That's why it's more of the same unless somehow Alpha and Omega had some legit problem outside the story.
I think I was trying to say sorry if I'm wrong to assume you wanted to change any concept by "adding" more.
You can actually be more objective in a critique. Depending on a score like that isn't not good. I also went in to see some arguments why some critics didn't like it, but some were really unfair. I remember one complaint about the designs of the characters even though it's just a design, like any Zootopia character.
I said that the rating isn't a bad score because it looked like you were using that as if it was. I wasn't saying that the score tells an answer of the quality.
"Can you prove that it's "stupid"?"
....You're asking me to prove that making the argument that a red box is actually blue is stupid. *facepalm* Do I need to prove that water is wet too?
"I already explained why the movie is either: just as good or close, or all is bad."
And it's that kind of ridiculous nonsense that makes it impossible for ANYONE to take what you have to say on the matter seriously. What you're saying is that there's NO SUCH THING as bad or good movies. According to your bass-ackwards idea of what constitutes logic, Plan 9 From Outer Space is just as good as Star Wars: A New Hope. The Dorbees is just as good as Toy Story. Monster A-Go-Go is just as good as Frankenstein.
"Anyone who couldn't have fun with the story of the movie because "they've seen similar" is someone who grew up differently. And those who never seen such story, and saw the Alpha and Omega one first, would like it. All is bias."
Yeah. We're "biased" because people have been making movies for OVER A CENTURY. Making the argument that this movie only works if it's one of the first movies you've ever seen ISN'T a good one.
"That's why it's more of the same unless somehow Alpha and Omega had some legit problem outside the story."
Okay, so we can't complain about the ugly character designs, we can't complain about story elements, we can't complain about the technical aspects of the animation... What is it we ARE allowed to complain about, O Dictator of Reviewing Standards? -_-
I think I was trying to say sorry if I'm wrong to assume you wanted to change any concept by "adding" more.
"Depending on a score like that isn't not good."
And asking for proof that something is bad and ignoring SEVERAL SOURCES pointing out how it's bad is downright ignorant.
"I wasn't saying that the score tells an answer of the quality."
We know you weren't saying that, because determining the quality based on the ratings of THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE would actually MAKE SENSE.
You are not understanding my point maybe.
I still feel that you're not understanding the point.
The MAIN reason why some people said the movie was crap was because they wanted a different story or maybe more... BECAUSE those people GREW UP with older movies with some similar things.
Those who did NOT watch those old movies, grew up with Alpha and Omega would of liked it. This "growing up" thing is subjective, and that's why I compare Alpha and Omega to those old movies, well, perhaps some old ones. Not all old movies are good. XD
Deciding that it's not as good as the old in favor of only certain people growing up with some older movies is itself an unfair argument. Sounds completely bias. Unless of course the reason why such work was made would have something to do with the audience maybe.
If the story is just as good as the older one, then the story is just as good. It does not matter "what came first" because growing up is subjective and the argument of "first is superior because it came first." is not science.
Because "ugly" is subjective, and it would be wrong to stifle creativity because that one person or group doesn't find the designs their thing. Story elements, already explained but it could depend on why... if adults who grew up with old story were part of the target, then more is better I guess.
I think it all assumes the main purpose of the art. Character design for example is meant to grow more people, not being a fan of a design may not matter to the creator. More people liking it is the goal, maybe.
Did you forget to comment to that "adding" more part?
Those aren't "sources" proving that it's bad. I'm not being ignorant, I am just showing your attempt at "proving" your point on it being bad is terrible.
Depending on popular opinion is an automatic invalid way of proving. Using "ratings" is also an automatic invalid way of proving.
Some ratings can be unfair, and so can popular opinion.
"You are not understanding my point maybe."
No, I understand your point perfectly. You're just infallibly right, and everyone who says otherwise it a fucking idiot.
"The MAIN reason why some people said the movie was crap was because they wanted a different story or maybe more... BECAUSE those people GREW UP with older movies with some similar things."
YES. People who have seen OTHER MOVIES tend to develop STANDARDS for what they consider to be good storytelling. Again, defending Alpha & Omega on the grounds that "it's good for people who don't know better" DOESN'T speak to its quality, rather than how it depends on its audience being ignorant, or not demanding anything better.
"If the story is just as good as the older one, then the story is just as good."
And what do you say to someone who has seen this story done DOZENS of times before, and has in all probability seen it done BETTER, informing his negative opinion about it?
"Character design for example is meant to grow more people"
...Character design is meant to grow more people?... No. No it's not.
"More people liking it is the goal, maybe."
If MORE people liking it is the goal, and SO MANY people disliked it, how is that not a failure on the movie's part?
"Those aren't "sources" proving that it's bad."
No, but it's the closest thing that someone can use to come to a general consensus about it. And yet again, you've failed to offer something more reliable than ALL those various sources aside from YOUR words of wisdom. -_-
"Not all old movies are good."
As you continue to say... PROVE IT. For all the round-about hoo-hah you've been chucking to block any and all criticism for this movie, I DARE you to apply any kind of legitimate negative criticism to ANY OTHER movie that you think might be bad, and then say with a straight face that THAT movie is still a failure in spite of its creator's "intentions" or how maybe SOME PEOPLE enjoyed it and it's just not YOUR thing, or how any of that criticism against that movie stifle ITS creativity.
Actually... No... Never mind... Of course you're gonna do it with a completely straight face, because even IF you correctly identify a movie's flaws (even those of which can be DIRECTLY COMPARED to those of Alpha & Omega), you're STILL going to defend that movie to the death because these wolves just happened to get you HARD. And THAT'S the deciding factor. Alpha & Omega made you wanna fuck it, this other movie didn't, and that's why THAT movie is Jesus, and the other movie can rot in a pile somewhere....
Skipping first.
How the hell do those movies give "standards" and Alpha and Omega doesn't? I think you might just be making up bullshit as hard as you can because you don't want to admit how stupid you are.
Well the argument was "uhhh, that Alpha and Omega story feels too similar", so that's why I compared the growing up thing because the "similar" thing was the subject here.
Yes, it is. Every character in art may have a different or inspired design so more people can enjoy it. Many arts have different legal styles and that's great, even if it's not everyone's interest.
Just growing with more people liking it as the goal means the not liking behavior doesn't matter to the creator.
If a the plot is meant to be for those who didn't see it, or meant for those who likes stories like that, or both... then the idea of those audiences liking that is the goal maybe. We've seen a lot of people enjoy the plot that way, and many who didn't see the other similar elements may like it.
Umm, no. Popular opinion as "proof" because it's popular is an automatic fail argument for this type of subject. So I ask again, where is the actual relevant proof that the movie is "bad"?
I already argued how the movie is probably good for what it is.
I think it's easily assume some old movies are terrible, and it's just that it's terrible for what it's trying to be. It's easy to research I think.
There is nothing wrong with characters like Kate, and Humphrey being there. But I can still be less bias, and for example that Alpha and Omega DS game sucks as a game. All I can say is that at least you can collect it I guess.
"How the hell do those movies give "standards" and Alpha and Omega doesn't?"
You watch enough movies, and you're going to see that some movies are simply better made than others. Since you're also of the opinion that Alpha & Omega has a better chance of being seen as "good" or "meaningful" to those who haven't seen a wider variety of movies, that implies you have some kind of understanding of this very basic concept.
"I think you might just be making up bullshit as hard as you can because you don't want to admit how stupid you are."
Yeah, keep up that psychological projection. It's been doing you a world of good so far...
"Well the argument was "uhhh, that Alpha and Omega story feels too similar", so that's why I compared the growing up thing because the "similar" thing was the subject here."
You have this amazing ability to completely derail and and all trains of thought. What the hell are you jabbering about?
"Yes, it is. Every character in art may have a different or inspired design so more people can enjoy it."
...Okay, I have NO IDEA what you just said there, but the fact remains that no, character design IS NOT "meant to grow more people", as you put it. It's just how a character looks.
"Just growing with more people liking it as the goal means the not liking behavior doesn't matter to the creator."
That doesn't make ANY sense. If the idea is to get as many people to like it as possible, why shouldn't a creator be concerned with whether or not his work is FAILING in that regard?
"Umm, no. Popular opinion as "proof" because it's popular is an automatic fail argument for this type of subject. So I ask again, where is the actual relevant proof that the movie is "bad"?"
Where is YOUR actual relevant proof that the movie is "good"? Again, if word-of-mouth from the AUDIENCE isn't proof enough for you, what is?
"I already argued how the movie is probably good for what it is."
Yeah, except as you love to point out again and again, that's only your opinion. According to YOU, opinions aren't proof. If THEIR opinions mean nothing, YOUR opinion means nothing.
"I think it's easily assume some old movies are terrible, and it's just that it's terrible for what it's trying to be. It's easy to research I think."
ANYONE could say the EXACT SAME THING about Alpha & Omega. Anyway, you're just assuming that something is bad because it's OLD? And you're gonna kick and scream until you're blue in the face about how Alpha & Omega is "good for what it's trying to be" but NO OTHER movies can be "good for what it's trying to be"?
That is completely bias maybe. Many other people can watch other movies first and Alpha and Omega would be one of them and it wouldn't feel any different.
The typical reply from you I think.
The main argument is that the story of Alpha and Omega feels too similar to some, even though the story does have it's own direction a bit... but regardless that's the argument isn't it? That's why I compared the growing up thing.
Every legal movie has their own legal characters and it's better than nothing to have different characters, because more different people can enjoy them. Alpha and Omega characters are like that which is good.
If the goal is to find only people to like it, then the other audience that doesn't find it their thing wasn't part of the goal.
Example, scary genre is meant for scary fans and maybe some new people. Some doesn't like that genre, but that disliking isn't a concern as that behavior isn't part of the goal. It's just not their kind of thing. The genre is meant to grow for those who are interested into it.
The movie is good because it has enough effort in it, seems to have a lot of characters being enjoyed and since growth of an audience is usually a goal, it worked.
A little bit of negative feedback might count, but some complain because it's not their thing and that's not fair. Those wanting more though, that's the only thing I can sort of agree to. But since part of the goal is very successful, no bugs and glitches, and does what it was trying to do in general, it's good so far.
I'm not saying the old movies are bad because they are old.
_______________
Like many comments, I apologize if there are any mistake or more I guess.
"That is completely bias maybe."
That is completely bias MAYBE. Yeah.. that makes you sound like you know what you're talking about... And no, it's not "biased" to learn what makes movies good by watching a wide variety of them prior to watching Alpha & Omega. It's called being EDUCATED.
"Many other people can watch other movies first and Alpha and Omega would be one of them and it wouldn't feel any different."
No, that's completely the point. You keep pushing this idea that people can only think Alpha & Omega is a good movie if it's one of the first movies they ever see. It doesn't speak to its quality if simply watching other movies BEFORE it can interfere with your enjoyment of it.
"The typical reply from you I think."
Calling out your bullshit? Yes. VERY typical of me.
"The main argument is that the story of Alpha and Omega feels too similar to some, even though the story does have it's own direction a bit... but regardless that's the argument isn't it? That's why I compared the growing up thing."
Please, for the love of God, hire a proofreader!
"Every legal movie has their own legal characters and it's better than nothing to have different characters, because more different people can enjoy them. Alpha and Omega characters are like that which is good."
...Alpha and Omega characters are like what? They're in a movie? ..Yes, they ARE in a movie, what the hell are you saying??
"The movie is good because it has enough effort in it"
There's no green ribbon in filmmaking. NOBODY is actively trying to make a bad movie. By your logic, EVERY movie is a GOOD movie just because they TRIED to make a good movie. Sorry, that's not how it works.
"and since growth of an audience is usually a goal, it worked."
...Except that it DIDN'T work. This is why looking at audience/critic reactions on sites like IMDB and RottenTomatoes IS a useful tool, despite how badly you want to dismiss them.
Audience and critical reaction to the first movie was very lukewarm, and the small group of fans it attracted ended up hating the sequels. Where's the "growth of an audience" here?
"A little bit of negative feedback might count, but some complain because it's not their thing and that's not fair."
Yeah, THAT makes perfect sense... Negative feedback can count, but just don't GIVE any, because that's not fair. *facepalm*
"I'm not saying the old movies are bad because they are old."
Then what are you assuming that makes them terrible, or "terrible for what they're trying to be"?
"Like many comments, I apologize if there are any mistake or more I guess."
You GUESS you apologize... How very sincere...
What an interesting way to spend your Valentine's Day.
I can spend a few minutes refuting bullshit before proceeding with making my special someone feel special, thank you. ;) lol
But what makes one movie good or doesn't. All you said was that you can watch other movies to tell, but with no argument behind it.
The effect of "I've seen this before" can be different depending what you watch first. So I still see no different. Some can watch others without Alpha and Omega then Alpha and Omega would feel a little more "meh", but the same can be said by watching Alpha and Omega first, then watching an old movie way after with a sort of similar story.
"Stop doing the whole "it's bullshit" crap.".
What? It just sounds like maybe that you don't understand the point.
They are characters that can be liked by a lot of different people. Just like Nick from Zootopia for example. I hate Zootopia and I feel annoyed with that fox, but hey at least I kinda respect it.
I said they have effort because it looks like they do. I don't see a "tried but fail" much.
Like I said, it worked because a lot of people has showed interest and resulting in a box office success. The negative stuff don't matter much, especially if it's very biased. What matters is making a specific art work and finding more people liking that thing alone. Most of those who hate it could of been the non-targeted audience. Even if they were PART of the target, resulting in a way that is needed by not stifling creativity (adding more?) could be fine, but it still shows that there were a lot of people liking it aligned with the art. And that's why it worked so far.
ALSO, sequels don't matter for the first. I mean, don't judge a movie by it's sequels. Also some fans are stupid with the sequels. Some are attacking the creator because they hate the creator for their work. Like WTF.
Not all negative feedback is unfair.
SOME old movies.
"But what makes one movie good or doesn't.
All you said was that you can watch other movies to tell, but with no argument behind it."
Arguing what makes a movie good or not is POINTLESS with you. You've already made up your mind that Alpha & Omega is the holy grail of cinema, regardless of how you keep professing that one is more likely to regard it as better than it is if they've seen fewer films to compare it to.
"Some can watch others without Alpha and Omega then Alpha and Omega would feel a little more "meh", but the same can be said by watching Alpha and Omega first, then watching an old movie way after with a sort of similar story."
NOBODY is going to watch another movie and decide that it's "meh" just because they saw Alpha & Omega first. Sorry, but... they just aren't. Alpha & Omega is NO standard in ANY genre of film.
"Stop doing the whole "it's bullshit" crap."
Stop spouting bullshit, and I'll stop pointing it out. Simple.
"What? It just sounds like maybe that you don't understand the point."
Not when you're speaking incomprehensibly, no.
"I hate Zootopia and I feel annoyed with that fox, but hey at least I kinda respect it."
No you don't. You can't hate something and respect it at the same time. You only hate it because you feel you HAVE to, or else you're betraying Alpha & Omega. (Or do you hate it because the characters are supposed to representative of PEOPLE, and people are just gross? ;P)
"I said they have effort because it looks like they do. I don't see a "tried but fail" much."
Because, as I pointed out to you MANY times before, you refuse to look at the evidence of how it failed. Newsflash; EVERY MOVIE puts forth the effort to be a good movie. That doesn't automatically MAKE IT a good movie.
"Like I said, it worked because a lot of people has showed interest and resulting in a box office success."
...Okay, so now you're trying to cite box office success as a means of determining quality? You're right in that it shows people were INTERESTED enough in it to check it out, but only HALF of the audience came out of it satisfied.
"ALSO, sequels don't matter for the first. I mean, don't judge a movie by it's sequels."
Fine. I'll continue to judge the movie on its OWN merits, whether you like it or not.
"Also some fans are stupid with the sequels."
Uh-huh... You can't take your OWN advice and simply say that "they didn't find the sequels to be 'their thing'", they're just stupid. Nice.
"Some are attacking the creator because they hate the creator for their work. Like WTF."
You hate some people for THEIR work. There's no difference.
"Not all negative feedback is unfair."
Name ONE PIECE of negative criticism Alpha & Omega has received that you can agree with.
"SOME old movies."
Some old movies, and you're still dodging the question of WHAT you're basing your "they can still be terrible, despite their efforts" claim.
I gave out reasons why Alpha and Omega is a good movie. Though I didn't say it was the best movie ever. I felt that it should maybe added a bit more.
Again, Alpha and Omega is considered crap because some seen the story before sort of so that's why I make such comparison. How the hell can someone have the same opinion if they NEVER saw a similar story before?
Can you prove that mine is "bullshit"?
Skipping.
Umm actually you can. I'm not homosexual with humans but I respect it for those that are. Not being homosexual is no excuse for homophobia for example. There just isn't an excuse anyway.
No, I'm being honest. That movie looks a bit edgy and I hate the fox, don't pretend I love the stupid fox. Don't.
In a way yes, but I'm talking about many things INSIDE the movie. Alpha and Omega had a lot of effort. A movie like Foodfight for example lacks a lot. It has bad animation, lazy animation, and probably other issues that makes the main creative point look bad. Alpha and Omega gets bashed for WHAT IT IS by some.
Proof?
Skipping
When it comes to a fan stifling the creator's own choices and even to the point of wishing death upon the creator with a fantasy book, I think there is a bit of a problem, don't you think?
THEIR work is targeting me in wrong ways, an Alpha and Omega dinosaur script isn't.
What's the point of that argument? Even if there was no "criticism" with Alpha and Omega I agree to doesn't make my point invalid. Besides, I did agree with a few points in sequels and kinda for adding more for the first movie. There could be some others in the first movie, but not so sure.
Foodfight is an example of an old movie that's "terrible".
___
Of course as I said before when an intention in a work is morally wrong, then that may still be bad. XD
Account abandoned and probably will make a new anonymous account with no trace of evidence of it being me. I think it's justified.
"I gave out reasons why Alpha and Omega is a good movie."
Yeah, what were those reasons again?
Amidst your incomprehensibly gobbledy-goo, I remember something about how effort is the same thing as quality (it ISN'T), and you want the wolves to molest you or something...
"Again, Alpha and Omega is considered crap because some seen the story before"
Among other reasons, YES. EXACTLY. Most people consider it crap because it's rehashed material. Why insist on fighting them about this point?
"Can you prove that mine is "bullshit"?"
I can't prove anything with someone who refuses to apply a little critical thinking to what he's saying.
"Skipping."
Yeah, better to IGNORE something than try to better yourself with it...
"That movie looks a bit edgy"
....Seriously?.... You go everywhere you possibly can, spouting your rhetoric about how child molestation and sex with animals isn't anywhere NEAR as bad as society generally makes them out to be, and your argument against Zootopia (which you HAVEN'T seen, correct?) is that it "looks a bit edgy"? THAT'S your criticism?... *facepalm*
"A movie like Foodfight for example lacks a lot. It has bad animation, lazy animation, and probably other issues that makes the main creative point look bad. Alpha and Omega gets bashed for WHAT IT IS by some."
Uh-huh, and MOST would say THE EXACT SAME THING YOU JUST DID about Alpha & Omega. So YOU'RE allowed to complain about Foodfight's animation, but NO ONE is allowed to complain about Alpha & Omega's animation?
"Proof?"
...Proof of what? Half of the audience's disapproval? THAT'S WHAT CRITICS' AND AUDIENCES' SCORES ARE FOR!
"When it comes to a fan stifling the creator's own choices and even to the point of wishing death upon the creator with a fantasy book, I think there is a bit of a problem, don't you think?"
Apparently YOU don't think so, since anyone who says the slightest thing negative about your precious movie becomes the next target in your never-ending smear campaign.
"THEIR work is targeting me in wrong ways, an Alpha and Omega dinosaur script isn't."
Their work is NOT targeting you, until you decide to get on their bad side. After that point... YEAH. That's what they're gonna do. JUST LIKE YOU DO.
And Dino Digs just flat-out SUCKED. People are gonna talk bad about it. Such bad-talk doesn't target you until you decide to BECOME a victim of it.
"What's the point of that argument? Even if there was no "criticism" with Alpha and Omega I agree to doesn't make my point invalid."
You said earlier that not all negative feedback is unfair. PROVE IT. Say ONE THING NEGATIVE about Alpha & Omega that is shared by many other dissenters that you can actually AGREE with.
"Besides, I did agree with a few points in sequels and kinda for adding more for the first movie. There could be some others in the first movie, but not so sure."
Humor me; WHAT flaws were found in the sequels again?
There COULD be other flaws, but you're not so sure... Nice cop-out there.
"Foodfight is an example of an old movie that's "terrible"."
...Maybe, except Foodfight came out AFTER Alpha & Omega. And besides, it still TRIED! According to your bullshit logic, so long as it TRIES and puts forth the EFFORT, that means it's a good movie!
Effort IS the same thing as quality sometimes. If someone WANTED to make the wolves have a specific style and WANTED a story to be inspired by similar love, then that alone is good quality as long if it's enough to look like the legal and safe goal.
At least they are not disgusting vomiting humans. Attraction to humans is DISGUSTING.
And those people are biased. If they did NOT see those other movies, they could of liked it. So thats why the movies are no better than certain old good movies. No different standard of story since "what came first" doesn't matter unless the creator was trying to avoid that. Though the movie already has unique directions anyway. XD
Keep saying that, even though it's not true.
Stop pretending everything you say is "automatic fact".
Of course, when I call out Zootopia, you bitch about it and say I'm biased... You're giving me yet another reason to hate this movie.
And yeah, it's not as bad because 1. animals cannot suffer as much as a human being and 2. molestation isn't as bad as first degree rape and/or second degree rape. Those are realistic thoughts... if you think they are not, then prove it.
Let me hear some valid points proving it's "bad" animation and some others then.
All I was able to see was:
Many liked it to the point of success. Negativity was probably smaller and some of them were just "furry!!! nooo!" which aren't valid.
Where is the proof that there are half who has a more fair reason?
Umm, I don't wish death upon people with a fantasy book because they said some stupid point about a movie. Also, I focus a lot on certain people because they continue to focus a lot on me.
Give me a fair non-bias point that proves the movie is bad. Also, talking shit about the movie itself doesn't make me a victim, however I was talking about other things, for example, the cyberbully called TheDarkReindeer.
https://wwwarea.deviantart.com/art/TheDarkReindeer-Youtube-is-a-Cyberbully-and-W...
They are saying bullshit about me. That's a targeted focus on me. Don't pretend their mistakes are "fine".
Others don't need to agree with me in order to make my point good. Some do agree BTW, for example, the art design of the wolves, but still.
Bad counting, plot hole involving Humphrey, graphics not as good as first, story in third being too fast maybe, and maybe more.
Whoops, well there is that one Titanic movie. The movie tried being a movie, but the efforts in it sucked. Alpha and Omega tried being a movie, and the main intentions in it had enough effort to show it. The graphics are good enough, it shows two characters likeable which reached it's goal, and there were Lilly and Garth and maybe more.
Account abandoned and probably will make a new anonymous account with no trace of evidence of it being me. I think it's justified.
Hey, Diamond Man, since you preemptively blocked me and Equivamp on Twitter, well, you know there's an "ignore" function on Flayrah?
Won't help with the anons, though.
That's not gonna prevent you from commenting in the public I think.
No, but it will prevent you from seeing them, so what's the difference between an ignore and a block? You didn't ban me from Twitter by blocking me. (However, you'd have to be logged on for it to work.)
Twitter blocking: Tries to prevent viewing, and cannot contact directly and in public.
Flayrah: Makes me not see your comment, but can still see me, and directly reply probably.
It would be worse since I would badly want to know what you're saying in public to me.
It's equivalent to mute, not block. Like alt.fan.furry, you can block PM (email), and ignore but not prevent public debate. Unlike a.f.f there is the comment ratings and ongoing karma system - which, incidentally, works on guests as well.
Technically someone can still talk about you on Twitter in public if you block them, they just can't use your Twitter handle, so it's not really all that much different.
There's no computer algorithm in the world that can prevent people saying mean things about someone behind their backs. In time, and it can take awhile, you just worry about the things you can control, and you'll accomplish more in the long run.
Yeah but I think the effect of it may be better than nothing. Like, but no promises, the likelihood of someone commenting in a separate comment to "reply" is more low sometimes.
As for chatting with someone about me, probably more of the same.
Also blocking can prevent someone from seeing information on Twitter. I'm sure some knows how to get around that, but I think there might be some effect.
I see with the page switching it breaks the reply structure and we get some comments which are no longer directed to the correct comment.
e.g. https://www.flayrah.com/7076/free-speech-and-why-it-matters-furry-fandom?page=1#... and https://www.flayrah.com/7076/free-speech-and-why-it-matters-furry-fandom?page=1#...
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPbjPOgRtyA
Yes, my "was I talking to you?" is now somehow even ruder than it was before.
Hard to imagine comments worse than this flaming shitheap of an article but here we are
I say nuke this entire article from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
YOU STARTED IT, ASSHOLE.
and I came here looking to read an intellectual discussion. It may have started off as fair reading but damn... just damn. lol
That is an excellent blog post about free speech; I also enjoyed reading and watching your examples. Everybody is absolutely free to express their goals and beliefs, as long as they use their words responsibly.
Boozy Badger subtweeted this flaming shitheap of an article
https://twitter.com/BoozyBadger/status/1435362814030385154
I doubt it. Rakuen's "flaming shitheap of an article" is ... actually a rather nice way to put it (this article has caused at least one contributor to leave forever), but it's also four years old and not exactly unique flaming shit.
However, if it is a subtweet of Rakuen, then Boozy's off base bringing up the First Amendment or rights of Americans at all, because Rakuen's a South African who I believe resides in Europe, so he would only be arguing as a "social theory", as Rakuen can give a shit about Boozy's "I'm an American citizen!" posturing.
Seems unlikely to be about this article. But his second tweet there does clarify that there is a difference between the First Amendment of the US constitution and free speech as concept; which is exactly the same point I made. He falls down a bit by making it sound like freedom from government suppression is the most important thing which is a departure from the concept of free speech which is about anyone who would control the speech of others and certainly a departure from Mill's conception of free speech which also emphasised the importance of non-government censorship. In the modern world, censorship by non-government forces is perhaps more troubling right now than censorship by the government. Certainly in the Western world.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
To be honest, this "consequences" thing is heavily debatable generally. It's as if the type of people who say that don't realize that their are certain consequences to their own specific "consequences".
To give an example to show why I'm bothering to say this is this: If you want someone fired from their job (even if it's possible to fire the person without violating constitutional rights) because they've stated a political opinion one strongly take offense to, then frankly that's an example type of attitude that makes you a terrible person or more of one if you already are. Moral arguments and law are not always the same, and seeing "cancel culture" and "witch-hunting" become more acceptable in both this furry fandom and outside in some cases is arguably (and hell, sometimes illegally if some actions went that far) a big general problem, especially if some of those types of people try to disguise their own terrible behavior as "consequences".
Besides, if people can say "I hope you get fired from your lawful job because you're _insert political status here_!", then people can also say "You're very disgusting for wanting to take away a person's lawful career just because the person has a different political opinion than yours.".
So honestly, I agree with you assuming my general argument is an example of your own point. There are seriously many problems in our society that is technically "legal".
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