Yes, I now know who you are now. So I'm not surprised by what you are saying.
>At nearly every after-convention public meeting starting around CF4, the issue was raised. You were sent emails. You were called on the phone. Letters were sent. There is no means of communication which was available at the time which was not used, and when you ignored them all, people began airing their dirty laundry on Alt.Fan.Furry.<
You aren't really explaining what "out of control" means. In 11 years, we had a few problems with drunk and drug using people, who the hotel asked to leave. The "bomb scare" with the alarm clock, and the intolerant security person. The film security board telling someone he could not sell bootleg videos in the dealer's room. Security having to deal with loud dealer showing furry art porn on his laptop (openly displaying porn was always against the rules in the dealer's den). It all cases, we handled the problems as they came up. It's impossible to predict how people will behave. Maybe we did expect attendees to behave better, but for many of them , it was the first time they had to "let their hair down". There is a social learning curve. However, in ever case, we were invited back to the hotel (except for the San Diego venue, and that was due to a contract disagreement).
I never ignored a phone call about the con. I kept all con-related correspondence. People complaining about PDAs in the lobby, or crazy stunts were responded to. Otherwise, it was all a bunch of exaggerated and fabricated garbage on the at groups. I didn't bother with that.
>Actually he was bisexual --- same as you. Which he points out in the letter you're referencing. Most everyone who knew him at the time would be highly offended that you would try to pull the "Homophobia Card" on Ed.<
Oh? so I AM allowed to state my sexual orientation instead of having to accept your label. You called my partner and I "Gay Activists". Gay? not by the accepted definition. Activist? um... I have no problem with gays, but they have no interest in Furry (or that has been our experience). I called ED homophbic, and you called me a "gay activist". We're even.
I was very close to Mr. Kline and his family for many years. He lived in an apartment directly behind mine, and we had a bridge between our patios. I won't bother with the details, but he had some attitudes that many would agree tended toward homophobia. This is based on MY personal experience, yours might differ.
>Actually, the details were corroborated by others, including Scott Ruggels and myself. The stains in the elevator were slimy, adhering to a person who unknowingly leaned against them.
As to Ed's report of the guy dancing in the hotel lobby in nothing but a Dixie cup, I saw that myself. You dishonor yourself by calling Ed a liar on the matter.<
Yes, both elevators were pretty messy, and the smell of chlorine was very strong. I assume that was a continuing problem, considering where the pool was located. It had nothing to do with our con.
The guy wearing a dixie cup in the lobby. A crazy stunt. Security took care of it. Are you implying that someone pulling a stunt like this is somehow my fault?
>These being the same ComiCons I also attended? No, Sy, you couldn't find anything at ComiCon which came close to the "maturity" of what was in the collections you provided...not outside of a plain brown wrapper.
Oh, one could easily find T&A pics of the X-Mens' Storm, or cheesecake shots of Ms. Marvel, and indeed that was a lot of what passed for industry art standards of the time (and does today as well). But to compare that with, say, a black anthro stallion lying on his back in the snow while jacking off?<
Actually, you must have missed the adult magazine collectors, and the erotic art sellers. True, you don't see much of that now, after a local Baptist church pastor started his campaign to "clean up Comic Con". But back then, it was pretty much "anything goes".
The art books we had on display were clearly marked if they contained adult material. The art was created by well-known Furry artists, and so was on display. Many of the artists had similar art at their oen tables, and were working on commissions of an adult nature. Since we were sharing a table with SF cons, we pretty much had to be discrete.
>I was also a member. Oh, not at the same time as you. But Fred took over the job rather early in Rowrbrazzle's run. And I've seen issues going well back into its history, owned by people who WERE your contemporaries --- Mike-Scot McMurry, for example --- where authors were turning out almost literally reams of material.
While various members did not like having writers in 'Brazzle, and were vocal about it, that hardly amounts to an actual "artists only" policy, which is the article's claim.<
The point I was trying to make from what was said in the original article, is that there wasn't a "Funny Animal" fandom that was anything like SF, Fantasy, Anime or Furry fandom. It was a small, closed group. APAs were "members only". I was asked to leave a Vootie party at Chicago Worldcon becaeu I was not a member. Ken Sample was with me, and he was invited to stay (even though he was also not a member), because he had a reputation for doing good art. It wasn't "sequential art", and he may not have become a member because he didn't meet the criteria. I remember Fred talking about how much trouble he was having getting the memebrship of Rowerbrazzle to accept non-artists. The point was that if you were a fan of animal comics, but not a creator yourself, you were not welcome in the"funny animal" fandom that existed then. Also, the adult themed work that appeared in issues of Vooite and 'Brazzle came under heavy fire from other members. The "anti-adult themed media" controversy is nothing new in fandoms.
Once again, your experience was likely different then mine.
I will freely admit that I was hoping for a new kind of fantasy animal fandom that was open to anyone, creator or not, and that had no restrictions on content whatsoever. My attempt to promote such a fandom, with open parties and eventually conventions, made me some enemies. I dealt with it (I ignored a lot of BS), I'm dealing with it now. When I see what Furry has become, I'm very happy to see that it has, for the most part, remained a bastion of free expression.
> You obviously have a very personal dislike of mature-themed media
I draw fetish porn, you twit. Which I wouldn't even mention, since it isn't necessary to the conversation, EXCEPT that you just pulled the "Prude Card" on ME. Didn't you talk about doing research in another post?<
OK, my goof. Obviously there is SOMETHING you don't like, and haven't liked since you first came to know of me and my friends. I have some suspicions about what it is you don't like, but it is unrelated to the discussion.
Yes, I now know who you are now. So I'm not surprised by what you are saying.
>At nearly every after-convention public meeting starting around CF4, the issue was raised. You were sent emails. You were called on the phone. Letters were sent. There is no means of communication which was available at the time which was not used, and when you ignored them all, people began airing their dirty laundry on Alt.Fan.Furry.<
You aren't really explaining what "out of control" means. In 11 years, we had a few problems with drunk and drug using people, who the hotel asked to leave. The "bomb scare" with the alarm clock, and the intolerant security person. The film security board telling someone he could not sell bootleg videos in the dealer's room. Security having to deal with loud dealer showing furry art porn on his laptop (openly displaying porn was always against the rules in the dealer's den). It all cases, we handled the problems as they came up. It's impossible to predict how people will behave. Maybe we did expect attendees to behave better, but for many of them , it was the first time they had to "let their hair down". There is a social learning curve. However, in ever case, we were invited back to the hotel (except for the San Diego venue, and that was due to a contract disagreement).
I never ignored a phone call about the con. I kept all con-related correspondence. People complaining about PDAs in the lobby, or crazy stunts were responded to. Otherwise, it was all a bunch of exaggerated and fabricated garbage on the at groups. I didn't bother with that.
>Actually he was bisexual --- same as you. Which he points out in the letter you're referencing. Most everyone who knew him at the time would be highly offended that you would try to pull the "Homophobia Card" on Ed.<
Oh? so I AM allowed to state my sexual orientation instead of having to accept your label. You called my partner and I "Gay Activists". Gay? not by the accepted definition. Activist? um... I have no problem with gays, but they have no interest in Furry (or that has been our experience). I called ED homophbic, and you called me a "gay activist". We're even.
I was very close to Mr. Kline and his family for many years. He lived in an apartment directly behind mine, and we had a bridge between our patios. I won't bother with the details, but he had some attitudes that many would agree tended toward homophobia. This is based on MY personal experience, yours might differ.
>Actually, the details were corroborated by others, including Scott Ruggels and myself. The stains in the elevator were slimy, adhering to a person who unknowingly leaned against them.
As to Ed's report of the guy dancing in the hotel lobby in nothing but a Dixie cup, I saw that myself. You dishonor yourself by calling Ed a liar on the matter.<
Yes, both elevators were pretty messy, and the smell of chlorine was very strong. I assume that was a continuing problem, considering where the pool was located. It had nothing to do with our con.
The guy wearing a dixie cup in the lobby. A crazy stunt. Security took care of it. Are you implying that someone pulling a stunt like this is somehow my fault?
>These being the same ComiCons I also attended? No, Sy, you couldn't find anything at ComiCon which came close to the "maturity" of what was in the collections you provided...not outside of a plain brown wrapper.
Oh, one could easily find T&A pics of the X-Mens' Storm, or cheesecake shots of Ms. Marvel, and indeed that was a lot of what passed for industry art standards of the time (and does today as well). But to compare that with, say, a black anthro stallion lying on his back in the snow while jacking off?<
Actually, you must have missed the adult magazine collectors, and the erotic art sellers. True, you don't see much of that now, after a local Baptist church pastor started his campaign to "clean up Comic Con". But back then, it was pretty much "anything goes".
The art books we had on display were clearly marked if they contained adult material. The art was created by well-known Furry artists, and so was on display. Many of the artists had similar art at their oen tables, and were working on commissions of an adult nature. Since we were sharing a table with SF cons, we pretty much had to be discrete.
>I was also a member. Oh, not at the same time as you. But Fred took over the job rather early in Rowrbrazzle's run. And I've seen issues going well back into its history, owned by people who WERE your contemporaries --- Mike-Scot McMurry, for example --- where authors were turning out almost literally reams of material.
While various members did not like having writers in 'Brazzle, and were vocal about it, that hardly amounts to an actual "artists only" policy, which is the article's claim.<
The point I was trying to make from what was said in the original article, is that there wasn't a "Funny Animal" fandom that was anything like SF, Fantasy, Anime or Furry fandom. It was a small, closed group. APAs were "members only". I was asked to leave a Vootie party at Chicago Worldcon becaeu I was not a member. Ken Sample was with me, and he was invited to stay (even though he was also not a member), because he had a reputation for doing good art. It wasn't "sequential art", and he may not have become a member because he didn't meet the criteria. I remember Fred talking about how much trouble he was having getting the memebrship of Rowerbrazzle to accept non-artists. The point was that if you were a fan of animal comics, but not a creator yourself, you were not welcome in the"funny animal" fandom that existed then. Also, the adult themed work that appeared in issues of Vooite and 'Brazzle came under heavy fire from other members. The "anti-adult themed media" controversy is nothing new in fandoms.
Once again, your experience was likely different then mine.
I will freely admit that I was hoping for a new kind of fantasy animal fandom that was open to anyone, creator or not, and that had no restrictions on content whatsoever. My attempt to promote such a fandom, with open parties and eventually conventions, made me some enemies. I dealt with it (I ignored a lot of BS), I'm dealing with it now. When I see what Furry has become, I'm very happy to see that it has, for the most part, remained a bastion of free expression.
> You obviously have a very personal dislike of mature-themed media
I draw fetish porn, you twit. Which I wouldn't even mention, since it isn't necessary to the conversation, EXCEPT that you just pulled the "Prude Card" on ME. Didn't you talk about doing research in another post?<
OK, my goof. Obviously there is SOMETHING you don't like, and haven't liked since you first came to know of me and my friends. I have some suspicions about what it is you don't like, but it is unrelated to the discussion.
American Pine Marten